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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 01:59 pm
real life wrote:
The world's present population is easily achievable in the time frame you mention.


How?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:03 pm
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
The world's present population is easily achievable in the time frame you mention.


How?


Must I explain that to you as well? Laughing
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:08 pm
real life wrote:
real life wrote:
aperson,

which is THE single greatest or strongest evidence THAT PROVES evolution, in your opinion?




farmerman wrote:
RL, There is no "single greatest" evidence within a synthesis. Its all interlacing evidence that all supports and none refutes.


what nonsense. You certainly believe that some lines of evidence are better supported and you have more confidence in them as a result. It sounds like you are worried that aperson might actually answer the question. I specifically asked for his opinion and you jumped right in with your smokescreen. Let him answer.


Too bad we never heard back from aperson on this.

I wonder if aperson has considered that speciation (as commonly elucidated by evolutionists) is a dead end, and thus can not be a step in the evolutionary process.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:11 pm
real life wrote:
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
The world's present population is easily achievable in the time frame you mention.


How?


Must I explain that to you as well? Laughing


Excuse me I see you trying to weasel youself out of this by alluding to todays population. At 2000 BC the estimated world population was 27 million. So by your religion the civilizations in India, Egypt and China were wiped off the map and than instanteously reappeared within years after the flood in their full glory.

I guess you have an explanation for that?
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:13 pm
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
xingu wrote:
real life wrote:
The world's present population is easily achievable in the time frame you mention.


How?


Must I explain that to you as well? Laughing


Excuse me I see you trying to weasel youself out of this by alluding to todays population. At 2000 BC the estimated world population was 27 million. So by your religion the civilizations in India, Egypt and China were wiped off the map and than instanteously reappeared within years after the flood in their full glory.

I guess you have an explanation for that?


I guess you want me to assume that the estimates you give are correct and defend them. Sorry. Laughing
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:17 pm
And the civilizations? Can you explain that? Are you going to tell me all ancient civilizations started after the flood, the Egyptian, India and China?
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:31 pm
The persons that lived prior to the flood probably did not live in isolation from one another. Thus ALL civilizations did not start after the flood.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 02:33 pm
How do you accout for uninterrupted civilizations? Civilizations existed before your flood and continued on afterwards as if nothing happened? How do you accout for that?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 04:24 pm
Quote:
Coral and sediments on top of the world's tallest mountains indicate they were once undersea.

So it dispatches the oft stated objection to the Flood:


You then agree with me t5hat they were once "UNDERSEA". SEA is not a flood, it is a SEA. AFter they were deposited in a blanket that was originally horizontal to the sea level in which they lay, they were then moved, just . like a big carpet to their present mountain top locations. The evidence for these facts is that we have remnant "markings" of structural deformation that allows us to track back to their depositional bedchambers. Just like we use "scratch marks" on bedrock to show how a glacier has moved, we can also see from structural joints, cleavage patterns , fractures, quartz lenses, migmatites(remelted rok that hardens at right angles to the maximum force, and lastly, oriented iron minerals which become mobilized on remelt and then harden in line with the (then) earths magnetic field..

Theres no simple "They were proof of a flood" because I am kinda laughing at your very simplistic , way of interpreting structural geology.
In actuality , the layers of oceanic sediment that lie near the top of Everest, are parallel to the next adjacent layers , so these layers, above the marine sediments are actually metamorphic rocks, and the layers just below the marine sediments are granites. All the sediments are sammiched in between and , since theyre not burnt from contact, it looks like they "moved in at separate times. (All the while, the steep angles >20 degrees from horizontal) indicate that these rocks were "pushed" or "rode" into place, they werent even deposited along the massif.
At the very top of Everest , is the YEllow Band Limestone Formation tht lies in contact with schists and greenschist metamorphics beneath and leucogranites(light colered) beneath that. (All at angular repose to each other and the present horizon) Did the flood rise up and then recede to leave the lower elevations void of any sediments?The interesting thing is, l we have incontravertable geologic evidence that the Himalayan formations in contact with each other are all "post depositiona;l" that is, the whole mass of the sedimentary, metamorphc , and some igneous remelt layers of the mountains were moved into place by pushing India against Asia and the original ocean bed sediments that lay in the ocean and upper mantle in between these two masses of continents, were squeezed and pushed up as a giant vectoral resolution problem.The Himalayan range is undoubtedly an "outlier" a giant mass of rocks that was slid into place. We can see this because the rocks of the entire massif are nowhere else repeated In the Asian subcontinent except at the floor of the Indian Ocean where remnants of the marine sediments and the upper mantle rocks can be seen to be "ripped" away from and a vast deposit of the Indian Ocen Floor is "missing" and now resides atop the mountain range separated by two giant regional slip faults called "detachments" whcih, like the Pine Mountain Overthrust of the Southern Appalachians, goes on for a few hundred kilometers to the North.We know that the Himalayas were slid into pace on the runners of these two separate and distinct detachmentsThere is no controversy of that geologic interpretation Ive just repeated to you. Even OEC's understand and can follow the evidence. No Flood Need be invoked to attempt to explain it. In fact, a FLOOD, true to the principles of Occams RAzor, would be far too difficult to invoke and then evidence of which, would have to myteriously Disappear from the slopes of the massif and all over the rest of the Asian subcontinent.

Youve really gotta get clear with the differences between "depositional" and "Post depositional " features
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 04:24 pm
real life wrote:
. . . I wonder if aperson has considered that speciation (as commonly elucidated by evolutionists) is a dead end, and thus can not be a step in the evolutionary process.
Interesting. Please elaborate.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 09:27 pm
real life wrote:
If many of the world's (presently) tallest mountains WERE NOT mountains at the time of the Flood, (also if much of the earth's landmass was gathered in one , instead of the present config) then it would easily have been covered by the amount of water known to be on Earth today.

So rather than argue for a magical flood, you now prefer to argue for a magical sinking of the land?

By the way, if the land mass were all clumped together it would be 'less' likely to be covered by the water, not more likely.

The most likely scenario for the entire earth to be covered by water would be if the surface plate were completely flat, with no ocean basins or mountains at all. Then the whole planet would be covered by a shallow ocean. Maybe God didn't make it rain for 40 days and nights, maybe he just squashed everything flat and it made a big SPLASH which Noah thought was rain.... sheesh, give me a break with all this flood nonsense.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jul, 2007 10:13 pm
Actually, real tries to have it both ways. The earth couldn't be flat in a young earth scenario, so he must negate creation. If he wants a flat earth, we're looking at billions of years old of this planet. There's a conflict.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 08:43 am
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
Coral and sediments on top of the world's tallest mountains indicate they were once undersea.

So it dispatches the oft stated objection to the Flood:


You then agree with me t5hat they were once "UNDERSEA". SEA is not a flood, it is a SEA.


If the entire world is flooded, it is all 'undersea' at that point , is it not?
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:01 am
neologist wrote:
real life wrote:
. . . I wonder if aperson has considered that speciation (as commonly elucidated by evolutionists) is a dead end, and thus can not be a step in the evolutionary process.
Interesting. Please elaborate.


Well, the usual suspects define the line of demarcation between species as an inability to interbreed.

If a 'new species' were to originate (it must, by definition start with one member, unless somehow magically many members all receive the same mutation at the same time and 'cross the line') , then since that one new member cannot interbreed with any of the other species, the 'new species' is toast.

The usual response is -- gradualism.

A begets B, B begets C, and so forth until G is unable to interbreed with the 'root stock' A.

Thus G is now a 'new species'.

But G can still interbreed with B,C,D,E and F , who are still by definition members of the species, so G really hasn't 'crossed the line' at all, has he?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:09 am
Do you now renounce your "Flood Theory"? RL, please Dont try to play with words, an ocean does not demonstrate "flood Deposits" flood deposits are poorly sorted, easily discernable depositional features in a stratigraphic record.Although a flood contains water, not all water lain deposits are a Flood. Now Cmon, try to wake up. Youre arguing from a place of complete ignorance and youre just trying to squirm around seeking a foothold.

Ill go with my evidence of stratigraphy and structure and, if we both get hired by a mining company to produce product, Ill bet that you will go out of business within your first contract.

MP SEARLE .1999. EXTENSIONAL AND COMPRESSIONAL FAULTS IN THE EVEREST-LHOTSE MASSIF, KHUMBU, HIMALAYA-NEPAL.
journal of the GEological Society of London Vol 156. pp227-240 (its on the web)
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:09 am
Your premise is flawed, and flawed by your usual ignorance. Sexual isolation rather than simply the question of whether or not individuals can successfully interbreed determines whether or not members of one species will eventually become a different species. Furthermore, there is no "magic" involved in multiple mutations. Mutation is a constant process. Whether or not a mutation has the effect of leading to a new species depends upon whether or not the mutation confers a reproductive advantage on individuals. This is where sexual isolation comes in. If members of a species migrate to an new environment, or find themselves in a changing environment, for which a mutation confers an advantage, and they experience sexual isolation (the "ur-species" members either migrate away, do not follow this group's migration, or fail to survive the environmental change), then the possibility of speciation arises. The members of the sexually isolated group would continue to reproduce in unique circumstances, which could favor other mutations, which would be a response to environmental factors, which would eventually lead to a new species. That does not mean that they might not be able to successfully interbreed with members of the original species; rather, the question is whether or not the offspring of such a breeding would be capable of surviving in either the new or the original environment.

Unlike religious certitude, which claims to know the answer to all questions, science continues to refine its definitions and understanding as new data is accumulated. Religious dogma, however, simply denies truths, warps descriptions of the world, or invokes magical "poofing" by the deity. Your claims are over-simplistic, and simple-minded.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:14 am
Setanta wrote:
Your premise is flawed, and flawed by your usual ignorance. Sexual isolation rather than simply the question of whether or not individuals can successfully interbreed determines whether or not members of one species will eventually become a different species. Furthermore, there is no "magic" involved in multiple mutations. Mutation is a constant process. Whether or not a mutation has the effect of leading to a new species depends upon whether or not the mutation confers a reproductive advantage on individuals. This is where sexual isolation comes in. If members of a species migrate to an new environment, or find themselves in a changing environment, for which a mutation confers an advantage, and they experience sexual isolation (the "ur-species" members either migrate away, do not follow this group's migration, or fail to survive the environmental change), then the possibility of speciation arises. The members of the sexually isolated group would continue to reproduce in unique circumstances, which could favor other mutations, which would be a response to environmental factors, which would eventually lead to a new species. That does not mean that they might not be able to successfully interbreed with members of the original species; rather, the question is whether or not the offspring of such a breeding would be capable of surviving in either the new or the original environment.



So you are saying that a species is defined by where they live and are able to survive?

Um , no.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:16 am
No, i'm not saying that. Furthermore, i am not constrained to respond to your displays of ignorance, or strawmen which you construct either from ignorance or an unwillingness to acknowledge your ignorance.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:20 am
Sorry if I miss understood you.

What are you proposing as the 'line' that differentiates one species from another?

You say it is not the ability to interbreed, but I think many evolutionists might disagree with you.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jul, 2007 09:25 am
No, i'm saying that it is not simply whether or not two individuals can successfully interbreed. The recent bear example might be an indicator--however, no one knows if the offspring were sexually viable. If there were sufficient evidence that successful interbreeding were not a basis upon which to determine speciation, evolutionary biologists would redefine their terms. This differs wildly from religionists, who are categorically incapable of admitting any errors in their theses, and who never, under any circumstance, consider revising their doctrine.

And, tediously, once again, there is no such thing as an evolutionist in any other sense than the attempt by the religious to give a political character to an apolitical subject.
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