65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
stlstrike3
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:47 pm
farmerman wrote:
NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF CREATIONIST "THOUGHT" HAS SHOWN TO BE USEFUL IN ANY APPLIED FIELD.


Bravo! This is truly the piece de resistance of the challenge by science to the creationists. And it has never been given a satisfactory response.

As science advances, it is able to explain more and more about our universe without the need for a god. Those very same ideas can be applied to other fields.

The study of microbial resistance to antibiotics is an example of evolutionary science in action. The theory of evolution WORKS in this setting. Can anything even remotely similar be said about creationism? (I almost refuse to use the ID euphemism, as it really is just the same god damned thing).

All creationism claims to do is explain as-yet unexplained gaps in scientific knowledge with "god did it". That's exquisitely unhelpful. It castrates science from being a field of inquiry, questioning and discovery, and seeks to turn it into a church where we stop looking for answers and get on our knees instead.

As they say... if it weren't for religion, Columbus might have landed on the moon.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 04:56 pm
The applied field is "brain-washed by religion."
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 06:23 pm
stlstrike3 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF CREATIONIST "THOUGHT" HAS SHOWN TO BE USEFUL IN ANY APPLIED FIELD.


Bravo! This is truly the piece de resistance of the challenge by science to the creationists. And it has never been given a satisfactory response.


Actually it's nonsense.

Most of the great scientists who laid the foundation of modern science (which we have inherited in the past few generations) were creationists.

Are you trying to imply that science didn't exist before 1859?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 06:29 pm
We've come a long ways since 1859; or haven't you noticed? LOL
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 06:44 pm
real life wrote:
Most of the great scientists who laid the foundation of modern science (which we have inherited in the past few generations) were creationists.

Are you trying to imply that science didn't exist before 1859?
All of the great scientists whom laid the foundation of modern science had an anus, thus the anus must be important for the foundation of modern science.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 07:06 pm
OH OH! You ain't a friend of ali87 are you?
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1825062#1825062
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 08:02 pm
real life wrote:
stlstrike3 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF CREATIONIST "THOUGHT" HAS SHOWN TO BE USEFUL IN ANY APPLIED FIELD.


Bravo! This is truly the piece de resistance of the challenge by science to the creationists. And it has never been given a satisfactory response.


Actually it's nonsense.

Most of the great scientists who laid the foundation of modern science (which we have inherited in the past few generations) were creationists.

Are you trying to imply that science didn't exist before 1859?


http://paulag.home.coastalnet.com/mhproof.gif

Farmerman didn't say that scientists weren't creationists. But you knew that and you ducked.

Tsk tsk.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 08:02 pm
real life wrote:
stlstrike3 wrote:
farmerman wrote:
NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF CREATIONIST "THOUGHT" HAS SHOWN TO BE USEFUL IN ANY APPLIED FIELD.


Bravo! This is truly the piece de resistance of the challenge by science to the creationists. And it has never been given a satisfactory response.


Actually it's nonsense.

To justify that statement, please give an example of creationist 'thought' which is useful in an applied field.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jul, 2007 08:15 pm
RL does this all the time, he never stands and delivers any Creationist "thought" or Creationist "scientific principles" He always tries to duck behind that lame argument .

We all know that, theres really not a bit of science in "Creation Science".
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 12:34 am
Given that we all know he never stands and delivers any Creationist "thought" or Creationist "scientific principles" and that, there's really not a bit of science in "Creation Science" would anyone care to speculate what possess real life to maintain his claims? I find it hard to believe (if it's his intention to be convincing) that he's meeting with much success on A2K and I would imagine his efforts would meet with a much higher success rate via other venues.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 04:43 am
Last night on NOVA I saw something new, that is new to me. It's called emergence. There is some reason to believe that emergence is the natural way to explain the complexity in nature, the same complexity Creationist say only their God can produce. Emergence may be the explaination to how life started.

Before you wet your pants RL no one is saying that IS the way life started.

Anyway, for those who didn't see it you can view it here.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3410/03.html

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 06:48 am
chumly, thinking out loud said
Quote:
I find it hard to believe (if it?s his intention to be convincing) that he?s meeting with much success on A2K and I would imagine his efforts would meet with a much higher success rate via other venues.


My intervention with RL goes back a few years (as does ros, ci, set, the late Timber, and a few others). I get a nice bit of enjoyment out of how RL, in a rather polished argument built on selective exegetics, quote "mining" and thought compression of others, has so far managed to avoid any acquaintence with the sciences . He wishes to invoke specific scientific LAws (like Thermodynamics) but misses the fact that such laws govern all other reactions, (such as radioactive decay). He tries to benefit from the "duck and cover " of one, while avoiding any confrontation with the other. I find that entertaining and Ive often complimented him sincerely on his abilities to walk those lines of dogma without getting too involved with the rigors of a deeper knowledge of science.
I truly believe that RL is , at least, an acolyte, in some Evangelical Bible-centered group that professes a deep and public faith in Biblical Inerrancy.
If you figure it out, were some parts of the Bible not completely true to their purposes, then their whole fabric of belief falls. Dogma can be a demanding mistress.

He does leave many clues as to his abilities and limitations so, to be fair, I dont think its necessary to pursue him back to his refuge whenever we get too heavy with evidence. I always like to leve him with some area within which science doesnt have it all figured out and then watch as he either does or doesnt "jump on the opportunity". I find that most fun.

A while back we were enjoying some bit of evidence "piling on" of RL and I injected a fact that "Bats were a real problem in unravelling their fossil record from their origin". RL , as expected, turned the conversation to how we dont know anything when we have such a gaping hole in cladistic emergence. Wellsir, fun and games ensued.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jul, 2007 07:47 am
xingu wrote:
Last night on NOVA I saw something new, that is new to me. It's called emergence. There is some reason to believe that emergence is the natural way to explain the complexity in nature, the same complexity Creationist say only their God can produce. Emergence may be the explaination to how life started.

Before you wet your pants RL no one is saying that IS the way life started.

Anyway, for those who didn't see it you can view it here.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3410/03.html

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


I am sorry I missed the NOVA episode on emergence. I have heard that proponents of intelligent design are jumping on emergence theory. Below is an excerpt from an essay by Kristine Larson, a physics professor at Connecticut State University:
Quote:
Post-newtonian science has generally been reductionist in nature - namely, an understanding a system can be reduced to understanding the operation and interaction of its parts. This approach met with widespread success, and led to the acceptance of physicalism, "the belief that all science ultimately reduces to the laws of physics". However, by the twentieth century, it was discovered that some systems cannot simply be reduced to the sum of their parts, but rather have self-organization or emergent properties. These unique properties are different from the properties of the constituents at a more fundamental level. Examples range from something as basic as the hydrogen atom (more than merely a proton and an electron) to the human brain and the universe itself.

Over the decades of the twentieth century, scientists in an increasing number of disciplines (ranging from biology to computer science) as well as philosophers have applied emergence theory to systems of interest. As early as 1926, philosopher Stephen Pepper set out three basic tenets of emergence theory:

"1) that there are levels of existence defined in terms of degrees of integration;

2) that there are marks which distinguish these levels from one another and above the degrees of integration;

3) that it is impossible to deduce the marks of a higher level from those of a lower level, and perhaps also (though this is not clear) impossible to deduce marks of a lower level from those of a higher."

It comes as no surprise that some in the creationist/ID community have jumped on emergence theory as "proof" of a Creator. For example, John Templeton and Robert Herrman claim that: "There are deep and powerful ordering forces in the universe. This is especially observed in recent developments in the study of what are called far-from-equilibrium processes, in which it is seen that there are spontaneous transitions within apparently random processes to higher levels of order."

Although it is true that such "chaotic" systems do show emergent properties of order, there is no scientific evidence that this derives from a supernatural driver. Others have claimed that emergence is a philosophical concept rather than a testable, scientific theory. In response, philosopher of science Philip Clayton has proposed the following tenets:

"1) Emergence studies will be scientific only if emergence can be explicated in terms that the relevant sciences can study, check, and incorporate into actual theories.

2) Explanations concerning such phenomena must thus be given in terms of the structures and functions of stuff in the world."

As the universe itself is the greatest "emergent" structure of all, it is not surprising that physicists have used the term to describe various theories of the very early universe. For example, time, space-time, and Einsteinian gravity have all been described as "emergent properties" of the universe [Barceló, Visser, and Liberati 2001; Butterfield and Isham 1998; Clayton 2004]. Various models of the emergence of the universe itself have been proposed, mainly within the framework of the inflationary paradigm [Linde 1987]. The universe is generally pictured as being "spontaneously created from nothing," either through quantum tunneling (nucleation) [Vilenkin 1983 and 1987] or through the "no-boundary" proposal [Hartle and Hawking 1983]. For this reason, inflationary models are frequently called "the ultimate free lunch" [Guth 1997, 1]. Such glib comments have opened up inflationary cosmologies to sharp criticism from the ID community. For example, in his book No Free Lunch (2002), William Dembski called it a "form of magic" and explained its appeal as "the offer of a bargain - indeed an incredible bargain for which no amount of creative accounting can ever square the books. The idea of getting something for nothing has come to pervade science" [368]. After ridiculing cosmology for appealing to this "magic," Dembski offers the salvation of design theory, which "substitutes a designer who explains everything. Magic gets you something for nothing and thus offers a bargain. Design gets you something by presupposing something unimaginably bigger and thus asks you to sell your scientific soul. At least so the story goes. But design can be explanatory without giving away the store."

Despite Dembski's inflammatory language and glossing over of scientific theory, it is understandable how a popular level audience might be swayed by his "logic." The sometimes amusing language that scientists use to converse within their own community can come back to haunt them when it comes to communication with the general public. For example, the term "quarks" sounds nonsensical enough when taken in isolation, but when these unobservable particles are said to come in "flavors" named up, down, strange, charm, top and bottom (originally truth and beauty), the door is certainly opened for raised eyebrows (if not red flags) from opponents of scientific theories. In the 1980s and 1990s various research groups searching for observational evidence of macroscopic baryonic dark matter candidates (such as brown dwarfs) via microlensing made a veritable game of naming their projects in such a way as to obtain sexually suggestive acronyms, such as MACHO, AGAPE, EROS, DUO, and OGLE. While this can lead to moments of humor in otherwise dry conference presentations, it does nothing to further the reputation of science outside of its own community, and can furthermore play into the hands of its harshest critics.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 12:52 am
Hi farmerman,
Nice post thanks!

To all,
Yep I saw the Nova show on emergence, very cool stuff.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 07:27 pm
From BBC News.

Butterfly shows evolution at work

The bacteria selectively kills male Blue Moons before they can hatch
Scientists say they have seen one of the fastest evolutionary changes ever observed in a species of butterfly.
The tropical Blue Moon butterfly has developed a way of fighting back against parasitic bacteria.

Six years ago, males accounted for just 1% of the Blue Moon population on two islands in the South Pacific.

But by last year, the butterflies had developed a gene to keep the bacteria in check and male numbers were up to about 40% of the population.

Scientists believe the comeback is due to "suppressor" genes that control the Wolbachia bacteria that is passed down from the mother and kills the male embryos before they hatch.

"To my knowledge, this is the fastest evolutionary change that has ever been observed," said Sylvain Charlat, of University College London, whose study appears in the journal Science.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 08:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
From BBC News.

Butterfly shows evolution at work

The bacteria selectively kills male Blue Moons before they can hatch
Scientists say they have seen one of the fastest evolutionary changes ever observed in a species of butterfly.
The tropical Blue Moon butterfly has developed a way of fighting back against parasitic bacteria.

Six years ago, males accounted for just 1% of the Blue Moon population on two islands in the South Pacific.

But by last year, the butterflies had developed a gene to keep the bacteria in check and male numbers were up to about 40% of the population.

Scientists believe the comeback is due to "suppressor" genes that control the Wolbachia bacteria that is passed down from the mother and kills the male embryos before they hatch.

"To my knowledge, this is the fastest evolutionary change that has ever been observed," said Sylvain Charlat, of University College London, whose study appears in the journal Science.
Excellent example of adaptation, often called micro evolution. But it is the process of macro evolution that brings about questions.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jul, 2007 09:46 pm
The question is whether your questions are questionable.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 11:49 am
neologist wrote:
Excellent example of adaptation, often called micro evolution. But it is the process of macro evolution that brings about questions.


Here is a summary of the evidence for "macroevolution", more accurately called speciation:

Quote:
Source: David Quammen, National Geographic Magazine
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:30 pm
wandeljw,

It is interesting to see your source still citing recapitulation as one of his 4 great areas of 'evidence' for evolution.

Darwin is quoted that the embryo is the 'less modified state' (i.e. it is an 'ancestor' stage that the animal recapitulates) revealing his ignorance that DNA makes every creature distinctly different from the moment of fertilization.

Unborn humans , for instance, aren't 'fish' and later 'reptiles' etc at various stages of gestation.

The DNA of unborn humans is 100% human from the moment of conception, a concept Darwin had no clue concerning.

And National Geographic published this in 2004, eh?

Just a few decades behind, aren't they?

Recapitulation has been discredited for a long time.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Jul, 2007 12:31 pm
WAit a minute. How can totally different species, unrelated genetically, and without any fossil linkage, show the same adaptations from different continents. For example, cactus -looking bromeliads of Africa have developed similar morphological featrures as the cacti of the US and SOunth America. These groups of plants certainly diednt "evolve" Throgh common ancestry/ How do they evidence evolution.?
0 Replies
 
 

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