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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 01:45 pm
Huge extinctions seem to bare that out.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 01:46 pm
farmerman wrote:
Its cold up here in New England today.

Yeh, it's a nasty 75degrees F with bright sunshine. Brrrrrr.

Where the heck are you?

I'm gonna go mow the yard and see how many grasshoppers can adapt to running from the sound of a mower Smile
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 01:48 pm
That should have read "bear that out." Huge extinctions open up a good deal of niche opportunities for the survivors, as well.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 01:49 pm
farmerman wrote:
Its cold up here in New England today.


Are you taking steps to keep your mammoths healthy?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 01:52 pm
Farmer looks like he is dressed for the cold.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 02:03 pm
The fore discussion proves the math relationship of the direct relationship of evolution adaptation to th number of species in a genera (Basically , somebody will make it through the extinction event).

SO, the lesson for humans is , WE GOTTA EVOLVE UP SOME MORE SPECIES. Very Happy

Im at the extreme landward tip of Maine near Eastport, and about 10 mi SEof Calais. Weve been foggy and cool here. Its been in the late 60"s and crappy with fog n rain.. We do have some "megqfauna" . There were 2 moose that decided to use the main road yesterday. Everybody gives these guys room cause theyre so F*'n dumb. No mammoths though.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Jun, 2007 03:28 pm
farmerman wrote:
Im at the extreme landward tip of Maine near Eastport, and about 10 mi SEof Calais.

Holy cripe, you're right on the edge of the 'real world', places up there where they haven't seen electricity yet. If you travel just a bit west of your current location, you fall off the face of the earth (if you don't hit a moose while avoiding potholes on the logging roads).

If you stop by Portsmouth NH on the way back drop me a note and I'll drive over to meet ya.

Don't get lost Smile
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 09:49 am
farmerman wrote:
tiny modifications(microevolution) among species is often visible within our lifetimes, therefore the RL's of the world cant deny it because they can see it.



The leap that you attempt to make between 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution' just doesn't work.

You want to insist that a great number of small steps will lead to a large one.

It's like saying that since a critter can go one day without water, that it can also go 50 days without.

There are limits on biological systems.

Wholesale production of new genetic information for new organs, biological systems and new body plans is not the easy 'one leads to two leads to three...' that you try to suppose.

Genetic variation may allow a species to have different shaped noses, different sizes and shapes of skull, jawbone etc

That much is evident within the human family as well as many animals.

I love your cichlid example. At the end, you still have fish, do you not?

Have any of your fish produced something other than a fish?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 11:14 am
real life wrote:
farmerman wrote:
tiny modifications(microevolution) among species is often visible within our lifetimes, therefore the RL's of the world cant deny it because they can see it.



The leap that you attempt to make between 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution' just doesn't work.

You want to insist that a great number of small steps will lead to a large one.

It's like saying that since a critter can go one day without water, that it can also go 50 days without.

There are limits on biological systems.

Wholesale production of new genetic information for new organs, biological systems and new body plans is not the easy 'one leads to two leads to three...' that you try to suppose.

Genetic variation may allow a species to have different shaped noses, different sizes and shapes of skull, jawbone etc

That much is evident within the human family as well as many animals.

I love your cichlid example. At the end, you still have fish, do you not?

Have any of your fish produced something other than a fish?
neologist wrote:
farmerman wrote:
IT IS simply the time scale because there are no living examples of macroevolution that span a human lifetime and very limited examples that even span recorded history.
Cichlid fish macroevolution spans the shortest time that Im aware and for a cichlid to evolve from a small carp-like creature of one genera to a meat eating piranha- like fish of another genus or family , (due to geographic isolation of the rivers of te Madre de Dios, ) took something of a geologic time scale, say 100000 years . .
That is very interesting. Thanks, farmer.
That is very interesting. Thanks, RL.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 02:40 pm
real life wrote:
I love your cichlid example. At the end, you still have fish, do you not?

First you whine and complain because all the small micro-changes haven't led to a new species. Then when we come up with a new species you whine and complain because we haven't see the divergence into a new genera. What's next, are we gonna have to come up with a new phylum for you?

Meanwhile the fossil and genetic evidence clearly show that fish DID evolve into new classes and families. You're like the man who doesn't believe in X-Rays because you can't see 'em. But you're happy enough to get your teeth fixed by someone who uses x-rays.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 02:57 pm
No I haven't whined about 'new species' not being evident.

What I have said it that the decision to label something a 'new species' or not, seems to be rather arbitrary (i.e. it is a new species when it can no longer interbreed , except of course when it does still interbreed but we still choose to call it a new species).

Multiplying the labels for critters by defining them into ever more finely graded classifications does not prove evolution.

You may categorize them however you wish by whatever criteria you arbitrarily decide. That doesn't show that one evolved from another.

It's just a circular argument.

Q -- How do you know that X evolved from Y ?

A -- Because they are different species.

Q -- Why are they not considered the same species?

A -- Because we know that X evolved from Y.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 02:59 pm
real life wrote:
No I haven't whined about 'new species' not being evident.

Ok, maybe it was more of a whimper.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 03:11 pm
Amused would be more like it. Smile

Hope you're having a great day.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 04:23 pm
real life wrote:


It's just a circular argument.



You have NEVER posted anything but circular bullshit. You have NEVER proved a single point. You have NEVER provided the slightest shred of evidence to back up your fantastic delusions. You are a massive hypocrite.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 05:03 pm
Quote:
Genetic variation may allow a species to have different shaped noses, different sizes and shapes of skull, jawbone etc

That much is evident within the human family as well as many animals.
.

And if enough generqtions go by and if a population is isolated from its kin, then is a new species born. The fact that you use the word arbitraqry to define species is much less arbitrary than is your Bible based term "kinds". When are "kinds" species or not? According to you, close species go around interbreeding all the time. Science tries to be honest about its statistical outliers, Creationism cant afford ANY outliers.
Im afraid your "amusement" is borne of mere active ignorance.
Do you watch the Bible tumping "science shows" where they dress some guy up in sun tans and a pith helmet and he comes on stating that the "Morrison Formation" is evidence of the Flood? or do you disagree with that school of Creationist prosyletizing?

While science is trying to get a correct story down, Creationism has many families each with its own despotic revelation. Now I find that rather amusing to say the least.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 05:41 pm
Wilson wrote:
real life wrote:


It's just a circular argument.



You have NEVER posted anything but circular bullshit. You have NEVER proved a single point. You have NEVER provided the slightest shred of evidence to back up your fantastic delusions. You are a massive hypocrite.



Wilso seems to have that special ability and skill at identifying the crux of real's posts. Amen.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 06:16 am
RL
Quote:
Q -- How do you know that X evolved from Y ?

A -- Because they are different species.

Q -- Why are they not considered the same species?

A -- Because we know that X evolved from Y.


Actually the argument goes more like this

A Did X and Y share common ancestors?
B. Lets look at the genetic makeup of the li
ving species, evidence of the fossil record,evidence of time and biogeographic distributions of X and Y. Also, let us compare the data that continental drift or other tectonics provides to understand the issues of the fossil record.

C. We conclude that X and Y share evolutionary predecessors and are strongly linked by evidence.

Youre confusing the way that science works by imposing the manner by which Creationism reaches its conclusions. HERES HOW A CREATIONIST THINKS..

A We have 2 similar species on two different islands at two different times

B Dont be ridiculous, GOD Created em both , the one merely cleverly avoided being fossilized in all this time so he could confuse all but the most sincere believers in Biblical inerrancy. The fact that these animals share genetic information and biogeographic isolation is a way that God has provided to merely test our faiths. Arguments over.

The reason that Creationism makes any sense is why? You lost me with all the "evidence for a worldwide flood" , Mesozoic mammoths, and all this evidence of "intelligent design components".
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:28 am
farmerman wrote:
Do you watch the Bible tumping "science shows" where they dress some guy up in sun tans and a pith helmet and he comes on stating that the "Morrison Formation" is evidence of the Flood?


I found this on the Morrison Formation. Even Steven Austin can't buy the Creationist story about the Morrison Formation being caused by Noah's Flood.

Quote:
Creationist Mumbo Jumbo at Dinosaur National Monument
Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.
23 November 2004

The following material may be freely copied and distributed as long as the author is acknowledged and the text is not altered, edited or sold.

INTRODUCTION
The Jurassic Morrison Formation (also here and here) of North America is well known for its magnificent dinosaur fossils, including the beautiful exposures at Dinosaur National Monument. Because the fossils often (but not always) occur in chaotic masses (Dodson et al., 1980, p. 208, 214-215), many young-Earth creationists (YECs) have long argued that these dinosaur remains are "evidence" of "Noah's Flood" (for example, Wysong, 1981, p. 357). However, as discussed below, a detailed review of the geology of the formation conflicts with the claims of young-Earth creationism.

MORRISON FORMATION: INCOMPATIBLE WITH "FLOOD GEOLOGY"
Unlike other YECs, William A. Hoesch and Steven A. Austin of the Institute for Creation "Research" (ICR) are surprisingly silent on specifically mentioning "Noah's Flood" in their article on the Morrison Formation. Perhaps, Hoesch and Austin recognize that the formation creates too many problems for their "Flood" scenario. Instead, they might want to leave open the possibility that the formation developed through a series of what YECs might call "localized post-Flood watery catastrophes".

Among the many problems for "Flood geology" advocates are the dinosaur tracks and track ways that have been found in at least the Salt Wash and Lower Bushy Basin members of the formation (Engelmann and Hasiotis, 1999; Lockley et al., 1986; Dodson et al., 1980, p. 213). As shown in the stratigraphic record of Dinosaur National Monument, extensively thick formations occur above and below the Morrison. Now, many YECs (beginning with Whitcomb and Morris, 1961) consider all Cambrian to Tertiary (Pliocene) sedimentary rocks (in this case, the Lodore to the Browns Park formations) to be "Flood deposits". If this version of "Flood geology" is true, how did all of the dinosaurs walking (not running in a panic, Lockley et al., 1986, p. 1172) on the Morrison sediments avoid burial and death during the deposition of the Lodore, Madison, Humbug, Doughnut, Round Valley, Morgan, Weber, Park City, Moenkopi, Chinle, Glen Canyon, Carmel, Entrada, and Stump formations? Why are they still walking around during the middle of a "Flood"? Lockley et al. (1986, p. 1165) even mention the existence of multiple footprint horizons in the formation and rightly conclude that dinosaurs frequented the sites over an EXTENDED period of time. How could multiple footprint horizons form during a chaotic "Genesis Flood"? Furthermore, if the Morrison Formation is in the middle of thick "Flood deposits", why are subaerial sands located in the Junction Creek Sandstone at the base of the formation (Turner and Fishman, 1991, p. 540)? If the Brushy Basin Member, which is located at the top of the formation, is part of the "Flood" deposits, why does it contain so many features that indicate prolonged subaerial conditions, including: local paleosols (ancient soils), desiccation mud chips, burrows, root markings from plants, some polygonal desiccation cracks, casts of salt crystals, and clay pellet aggregates (Turner and Fishman, 1991, p. 543, 545, 546, 547, 557; Lockley et al., 1986, p. 1168)? How did these plants, soils, or drying sediments have time to form during the middle of a rapid Deluge? If the dinosaurs of the Morrison Formation were rapidly buried by "Noah's Flood", why do taphonomic studies indicate that many of the carcasses were exposed to subaerial conditions for significant periods of time before burial (Dodson et al., 1980, p. 228)?

When citing Turner and Fishman (1991), Hoesch and Austin fail to mention several critical details in the article, probably because they are entirely inconsistent with "Flood geology". For example, when discussing the presence of Jurassic Lake T'oo'dichi' during the deposition of the sediments of the Brushy Basin Member, Turner and Fishman (1991, p. 538) state:

Late Jurassic climate was apparently much MORE ARID than had previously been thought. In fact, sedimentologic evidence suggests that the lake basin was TYPICALLY DRY FOR EXTENDED PERIODS AND ENJOYED ONLY BRIEF WET INTERVALS. [my emphasis]

So, how could a lake periodically dry up during "Noah's Flood"? Turner and Fishman (1991, p. 556-557) also provide the following details on the arid to semi-arid conditions associated with Lake T'oo'dichi':

That Lake T'oo'dichi' was typically a shallow lake that frequently evaporated to dryness can be discerned from both clastic and tuffaceous deposits.

Discovery of a large alkaline, saline lake in the Brushy Basin Member of the Morrison Formation has interesting paleoclimatic implications. In the past, a humid, subtropical climate had been inferred for the Late Jurassic in the Colorado Plateau region because remains of large herbivorous dinosaurs are found within the Morrison. Recent work by vertebrate paleontologists (R. Bakker, 1987, oral commun.) suggests that a semiarid to arid climate is a more reasonable interpretation.

How can arid or semiarid climates exist during "Noah's Flood"?

To avoid these problems, YECs might argue that the Brushy Basin Member had a "post-Flood" origin. However, without invoking another Deluge in violation of Genesis 8:21-22, how could the overlying Cedar Mountain, Dakota, Mowry, Frontier, Mancos, Bishop, Browns Park, and Quaternary deposits form in a "post-Flood" period of 4,000 years or less? Furthermore, coal reflectance and other data indicate that after deposition the Brushy Basin Member was buried to depths of at least 1800 meters (Turner and Fishman, 1991, p. 552). Later, the sedimentary rocks were uplifted to form outcrops. How can sediments be buried to depths of 1800 meters, held there long enough for unusual diagenetic minerals to form at moderate temperatures, uplifted and finally reexposed at the surface in 4000 years or less? Where's the evidence of any rapid movement? If the Morrison is "post-Flood", how did dinosaurs migrate back into this area so quickly after the "Flood"? Why didn't mammoths or other large mammals follow the dinosaurs from "Noah's ark" back to North America?

As usual, when the claims of YECs are compared to actual field data, their "Flood" and "post-Flood" mythologies rapidly fall apart. The stratigraphy, paleontology, and diagenetic mineralogy of the Morrison Formation simply won't fit into "Flood", "post-Flood" or even "pre-Flood" fantasies. YECs might want to hide behind their old "that's just your uniformitarian interpretation" ploy, but the field evidence in Dodson et al. (1980), Engelmann and Hasiotis (1999), Lockley et al. (1986), Turner and Fishman (1991) and other references completely refutes such a tactic.

The inability of YECs to define a "Flood/post-Flood contact" in the geologic record of Dinosaur National Monument closely resembles what the famous naturalist and creationist Georges Cuvier experienced over 200 years ago. When faced with the same problem of where to place the "contact" in the rocks of the Paris Basin, Cuvier simply committed a bit of biblical heresy and concluded that there had been six worldwide "floods" over geologic time and that the last one represented "Noah's Flood" (Young, 1982, p. 50; Mintz, 1977, p. 7). Soon, however, Cuvier's ideas were dismissed as early 19th century geologists came to the realization that nothing in the geologic record supports the existence of world-wide floods (Young, 1982).

DARWIN'S EXPERIENCES
Hoesch and Austin are probably generally correct when they suggest that the dinosaur fossil assemblages of the Morrison Formation resulted from catastrophic mudflows. However, they are exaggerating when they claim that the dinosaur remains were buried by a "most extraordinary sedimentary process." Long ago geologists realized that the rapid burial of large numbers of carcasses is no evidence of "Noah's Flood". As Charles Darwin wrote on October 5, 1833 during his expedition to South America on the HMS Beagle, mass deaths and burial (that is, the formation of fossil "graveyards") are also modern phenomena and can be totally explained by natural catastrophes; such as, extensive droughts followed by severe storms:

While travelling through the country, I received several vivid descriptions of the effects of a late great drought; and the account of this may throw some light on the cases where vast numbers of animals of all kinds have been embedded together. The period included between the years 1827 and 1830 is called the "gran seco," or the great drought. During this time so little rain fell, that the vegetation, even to the thistles, failed; the brooks were dried up, and the whole country assumed the appearance of a dusty high-road. This was especially the case in the northern part of the province of Buenos Ayres and the southern part of St. Fé. Very great numbers of birds, wild animals, cattle, and horses perished from the want of food and water. A man told me that the deer used to come into his courtyard to the well, which he had been obliged to dig to supply his own family with water; and that the partridges had hardly strength to fly away when pursued. (7/8. In Captain Owen's "Surveying Voyage" volume 2 page 274, there is a curious account of the effects of a drought on the elephants, at Benguela (west coast of Africa). "A number of these animals had some time since entered the town, in a body, to possess themselves of the wells, not being able to procure any water in the country. The inhabitants mustered, when a desperate conflict ensued, which terminated in the ultimate discomfiture of the invaders, but not until they had killed one man, and wounded several others." The town is said to have a population of nearly three thousand! Dr. Malcolmson informs me, that during a great drought in India the wild animals entered the tents of some troops at Ellore, and that a hare drank out of a vessel held by the adjutant of the regiment.) The lowest estimation of the loss of cattle in the province of Buenos Ayres alone, was taken at one million head. A proprietor at San Pedro had previously to these years 20,000 cattle; at the end not one remained. San Pedro is situated in the middle of the finest country; and even now abounds again with animals; yet during the latter part of the "gran seco," live cattle were brought in vessels for the consumption of the inhabitants. The animals roamed from their estancias, and, wandering far southward, were mingled together in such multitudes, that a government commission was sent from Buenos Ayres to settle the disputes of the owners. Sir Woodbine Parish informed me of another and very curious source of dispute; the ground being so long dry, such quantities of dust were blown about, that in this open country the landmarks became obliterated, and people could not tell the limits of their estates. [new paragraph] I was informed by an eye-witness that the cattle in herds of thousands rushed into the Parana, and being exhausted by hunger they were unable to crawl up the muddy banks, and thus were drowned. The arm of the river which runs by San Pedro was so full of putrid carcasses, that the master of a vessel told me that the smell rendered it quite impassable. Without doubt several hundred thousand animals thus perished in the river: their bodies when putrid were seen floating down the stream; and many in all probability were deposited in the estuary of the Plata. All the small rivers became highly saline, and this caused the death of vast numbers in particular spots; for when an animal drinks of such water it does not recover. Azara describes the fury of the wild horses on a similar occasion, rushing into the marshes, those which arrived first being overwhelmed and crushed by those which followed. (7/9. "Travels" volume 1 page 374.) He adds that more than once he has seen the carcasses of upwards of a thousand wild horses thus destroyed. I noticed that the smaller streams in the Pampas were paved with a breccia of bones, but this probably is the effect of a gradual increase, rather than of the destruction at any one period. Subsequently to the drought of 1827 to 1832, a very rainy season followed which caused great floods. Hence it is almost certain that some thousands of the skeletons were buried by the deposits of the very next year. What would be the opinion of a geologist, viewing such an enormous collection of bones, of all kinds of animals and of all ages, thus embedded in one thick earthy mass? Would he not attribute it to a flood having swept over the surface of the land, rather than to the common order of things? (7/10. These droughts to a certain degree seem to be almost periodical; I was told the dates of several others, and the intervals were about fifteen years.)

The field data are obvious. Bone accumulations in the modern world and geologic record can be easily explained with actualism (modern uniformitarianism). In contrast, the data decisively refutes "Flood geology".

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/yec_mumbo_jumbo_henke.htm
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:39 am
xingu, thanks for the link. I like the tag end of that link, YEC-Mumbo-Jumbo Very Happy
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:08 am
farmerman wrote:
Youre confusing the way that science works by imposing the manner by which Creationism reaches its conclusions.


He does this all the time. In another thread, he quoted Darwin to me on the subject of race. This was after i had commented that there is only one race, the human race.

This is perfectly reasonable in terms of how "real life" thinks. He asserts that the Bobble is a complete and inerrant statement of cosmogony and cosmology, and he therefore assumes that those who disagree must think in the same simple-minded manner. He assumes that if i consider any part of Darwin's work to be reasonable and compelling, than i must therefore consider the entire body of his opus to be complete and inerrant. By analogy from his world view, he thinks that either you accept it all, or that, in rejecting any of it, you reject all of it. People like "real life" project onto others their own manner of viewing the cosmos, because they entertain no possibility of doubt, and cannot conceive that there would be any other way of thinking.
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