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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 11:42 am
Science can be duplicated by a dispassionate tester. Spirituality can not.

Science doesn't require belief to test it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 12:02 pm
Religion, on the other hand, requires belief, but can't be tested.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 01:09 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Religion, on the other hand, requires belief, but can't be tested.
Not in the laboratory sense, but one's faith must be tested.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 01:54 pm
Faith can't be observed and verified.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 01:55 pm
Any "test" is only in the eye of the beholder.
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 02:24 pm
parados wrote:
Science can be duplicated by a dispassionate tester. Spirituality can not.

Science doesn't require belief to test it.

I'm grateful for all of the advances of technology and the remarkable insights into nature that science has brought us, but it does not change the individual in a deep and profound way. It is not participatory. The scientist must remain dispassionate in order to be objective. Scientists can even be immature and immoral because the only demand on them is to follow the rules of doing science.

The purpose of spirituality, on the other hand, is to change the individual. However, it is not strictly true that spirituality requires belief and cannot be duplicated. Certain spiritual paths require "faith", but not all. There are spiritual rituals or techniques -- meditation, breathing exercises, chanting, yoga, etc. -- that can be practiced without faith in any religious dogma, or even belief in the efficacy of the technique itself. If a person chooses to "test" the spiritual "hypothesis" by practicing a spiritual technique (without accepting untested beliefs), their personal experience will tell them whether the "hypothesis" passes the "test". Did you experience a shift in your awareness? Do you witness beneficial changes in your psychological or physiological state? Does your experience reveal a spiritual dimension that you did not previously recognize? In that sense, spirituality "can be duplicated by a dispassionate tester".
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 02:28 pm
IFeelFree, Morals, ethics and humanity are separate from religious belief and practice. If it were directly related, there is no evidence to prove the thesis; just the reverse seems obvious.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 02:32 pm
You don't need religion to know we should treat all humans as we would like to be treated. The bible teaches the same thing, but I fail to see the over-preponderance of success. Do you? As a matter of fact, god tells its believers that homosexuality is wrong. What we have in contemporary times is the religious (mostly christians) trying to deny equality to gays and lesbians. That's hate; not love of all.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 02:42 pm
It's funny that the Bible presents, through Jesus, the Golden rule but its God doesn't practice it. Instead the Biblical God teachs us that other religions are bad and as a demonstration this He kills those who do not worship him.

It's not surprising the Abrahamic religions are so violent. Their Gods have taught their followers, through example, that killing is the best, if not the only solution to all problems.
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IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 03:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
IFeelFree, Morals, ethics and humanity are separate from religious belief and practice. If it were directly related, there is no evidence to prove the thesis; just the reverse seems obvious.

Notice that I said "spirituality", not "religion". I'm not a fan of mainstream religion. Too much of it is blind faith and provincialism. Spirituality is as natural to humans as morals and ethics. The desire to do what is right coexists with a natural curiosity about the "big" questions -- where do we come from? What happens when we die? Does God exist? How should I live?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 03:23 pm
username wrote:
I can see the T-shirt now:

WWGD

What Would God Drive


According to this video WWJD, a Ford pickup truck.
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 03:27 pm
God and Curt Schilling. You go, boys.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 05:36 pm
feelfree
Quote:
I'm grateful for all of the advances of technology and the remarkable insights into nature that science has brought us, but it does not change the individual in a deep and profound way. It is not participatory. The scientist must remain dispassionate in order to be objective. Scientists can even be immature and immoral because the only demand on them is to follow the rules of doing science.
.
Do I detect the footfalls of someone attempting to mount a pinnacle of moral superiority?Why is it that there are infinitely more scams of the faithful than there are scandals of science? Why? because science has a self imposed limitation and an attachment to truth, whereas religious truth is relative to the "correct" revelation. More religions spend time beating each other up about whether the "right sandal of Jesus" should be venerated or not("Life of Brian" lapse, sorry). Look whats happening to the Baptist Conventions now. Save me from moral superiority based upon religious "truth". Too many lies to keep straight.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 05:37 pm
Jesus be a damn fool ifn he drives a Ford F-250 with that new 6.4 twin turbo deisel. Its a POS.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:02 pm
IFeelFree wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
IFeelFree, Morals, ethics and humanity are separate from religious belief and practice. If it were directly related, there is no evidence to prove the thesis; just the reverse seems obvious.

Notice that I said "spirituality", not "religion". I'm not a fan of mainstream religion. Too much of it is blind faith and provincialism. Spirituality is as natural to humans as morals and ethics. The desire to do what is right coexists with a natural curiosity about the "big" questions -- where do we come from? What happens when we die? Does God exist? How should I live?


Do you attend a regular church service?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:15 pm
No matter how you cut it, "spirituality" is still based on religious' belief. Without religion, spirituality has no basis or foundation. One must believe in some supernatural thesis outside the realm of proof/fact that can be proven on human terms.

It can't.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:39 pm
farmerman wrote:
feelfree
Quote:
I'm grateful for all of the advances of technology and the remarkable insights into nature that science has brought us, but it does not change the individual in a deep and profound way. It is not participatory. The scientist must remain dispassionate in order to be objective. Scientists can even be immature and immoral because the only demand on them is to follow the rules of doing science.
.
Do I detect the footfalls of someone attempting to mount a pinnacle of moral superiority?Why is it that there are infinitely more scams of the faithful than there are scandals of science? Why? because science has a self imposed limitation and an attachment to truth, whereas religious truth is relative to the "correct" revelation. More religions spend time beating each other up about whether the "right sandal of Jesus" should be venerated or not("Life of Brian" lapse, sorry). Look whats happening to the Baptist Conventions now. Save me from moral superiority based upon religious "truth". Too many lies to keep straight.

I'm a scientist, so I get to insult other scientists. I'm in no way trying to be an apologist for religion. I have no use for mainstream, faith-based religion. I agree with your criticisms of religion. That doesn't let science off the hook. Scientists are no moral or ethical leaders, nor do they possess unusual insights into human nature. They're usually smart and they know some things about the natural world. Some of them are brilliant, some are idiots.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:41 pm
maporsche wrote:
IFeelFree wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
IFeelFree, Morals, ethics and humanity are separate from religious belief and practice. If it were directly related, there is no evidence to prove the thesis; just the reverse seems obvious.

Notice that I said "spirituality", not "religion". I'm not a fan of mainstream religion. Too much of it is blind faith and provincialism. Spirituality is as natural to humans as morals and ethics. The desire to do what is right coexists with a natural curiosity about the "big" questions -- where do we come from? What happens when we die? Does God exist? How should I live?


Do you attend a regular church service?

No, never. However, I have participated in numerous spiritual groups and even lived in spiritual communities for periods of time. They were not affiliated with any mainstream religions.
0 Replies
 
IFeelFree
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
No matter how you cut it, "spirituality" is still based on religious' belief. Without religion, spirituality has no basis or foundation. One must believe in some supernatural thesis outside the realm of proof/fact that can be proven on human terms.

It can't.

Wrong. Real spirituality is not based on faith. It is based on direct spiritual experience. Sometimes an intellectual framework is useful in order to make sense of spiritual experiences, but it is not a matter of faith or dogma. It is a way to understand these experiences, but is not particularly important in itself.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 10:52 pm
We have a church in Arizona that promises to give you a spiritual experience. The Spirit Walk
0 Replies
 
 

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