65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 05:32 pm
Quote:
So, for the guys who 'have all the evidence' I asked a question:

Quote:
Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved?

If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.


Nobody seems to want to talk about that either.


I havent answered this "question" because its just flat silly and unworthy of any educated person( you say that youre educated so Ive accepted that, however, oft times you dip into the realm of the inane to pull out questions). Its like asking "which variety of tomato is more evolved"?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jun, 2007 07:26 pm
Oh, definitely the Roma.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 06:17 am
real life wrote:
Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved?

If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.

It's *your* view of evolution we don't believe, the *actual* theory is just fine.

Care to tell us why, of all the misunderstandings you could have about evolution, you happen to have one which involves racism and elitism?

Now you're starting to sound like Gunga.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:19 pm
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
So, for the guys who 'have all the evidence' I asked a question:

Quote:
Which of the races in the human family is the most evolved?

If you say 'none', then you obviously don't believe your own theory.


Nobody seems to want to talk about that either.


I havent answered this "question" because its just flat silly and unworthy of any educated person( you say that youre educated so Ive accepted that, however, oft times you dip into the realm of the inane to pull out questions). Its like asking "which variety of tomato is more evolved"?


Why do the variations between the races exist if one did not evolve from another?

And why did the variations spread thru the population of the race if these variations did not confer survival advantages?

Perhaps you don't like the term 'more evolved'; but, call it what you will, that is what the theory proposes, isn't it?

Darwin put it this way:

Quote:
The enquirer would next come to the important point, whether man tends to increase at so rapid a rate, as to lead to occasional severe struggles for existence, and consequently to beneficial variations, whether in body or mind, being preserved, and injurious ones eliminated. Do the races or species of men, whichever term may be applied, encroach on and replace each other, so that some finally become extinct? We shall see that all these questions, as indeed is obvious in respect to most of them, must be answered in the affirmative, in the same manner as with the lower animals.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:31 pm
A slightly different opinion:

Quote:
Chimps 'more evolved' than humans[/size]
22:00 16 April 2007
Bob Holmes


It is time to stop thinking we are the pinnacle of evolutionary success - chimpanzees are the more highly evolved species, according to new research.

Evolutionary geneticist Jianzhi Zhang and colleagues at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, US, compared DNA sequences for 13,888 genes shared by human, chimp and rhesus macaques.

For each DNA letter at which the human or chimp genes differ from our shared ancestral form - inferred from the corresponding gene in macaques - researchers noted whether the change led to an altered protein. Genes that have been transformed by natural selection show an unusually high proportion of mutations leading to altered proteins.

Zhang's team found that 233 chimp genes, compared with only 154 human ones, have been changed by selection since chimps and humans split from their common ancestor about 6 million years ago.

This contradicts what most evolutionary biologists had assumed. "We tend to see the differences between us and our common ancestor more easily than the differences between chimps and the common ancestor," observes Zhang.

The result makes sense, he says, because until relatively recently the human population has been smaller than that of chimps, leaving us more vulnerable to random fluctuations in gene frequencies. This prevents natural selection from having as strong an effect overall.


from http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn11611&feedId=online-news_rss20

It is interesting that , even when the 'obvious conclusion' is obvious bunk, the evolutionary assumptions are maintained with ferocity and spunk.

Any reasonable assessment of the chimp and humans would conclude that humans are far more adapted and adaptable, thus more able to survive in more environments around the globe, etc .

But since the inferences drawn from the data seem to point the other direction, the headline is that the chimp is more evolved.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps it would be best to wait until we know more of the genomes function (about 95% of the human genome is a mystery) before we try to draw too tight on the conclusions.

In other words, if you were a man of the 15th century, unfamiliar with cars and rockets , but you 'concluded' that cars were the faster vehicle because when you pushed the car it rolled easier, would that be a sound conclusion?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:48 pm
real life wrote:
Why do the variations between the races exist if one did not evolve from another?

And why did the variations spread thru the population of the race if these variations did not confer survival advantages?


This was a rather dull-witted series of questions, which demonstrates how much you don't know. Peole in hot, sunny climates produced more melanin and more melanin bodies in the skin. The melanin absorbs radiation, and the melanin bodies give off heat. The body only produces these in response to the climatic conditions. But all humans have melanin and melanin bodies in their skin. People who live in cold climates don't produce melanin in anything like the amount that those in hot climates do--to fail to absorb radiation and to give off heat would be a liability in such situations. But that doesn't make them different "races," there is no such thing. All humans will adapt in the same way. So, for example, almost all Europeans (and possibly all Europeans--there simply had not been a complete "European" genome study done to be certain) are descended at least in part from "Aryan" people who migrated into Europe in pre-historic times--the evidence is in language and cultural artifacts, and is unassailable from a scientific standpoint.

But Aryans also migrated south into the Indian subcontinent. So, for example, i found the image below by simply searching for "Indo-Aryan" with a Google image search:

http://www.pg.com/science/skincare/Skin_tws_38/skin_tws_38.jpg

Those children have dark brown eyes, black hair, and "dusky" skin. That is an adaptation to the climate of the Indian subcontinent.

With that same search, i got this result:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Indo-aryans.JPG

Aryan tribes who migrated south benefited from the increase in melanin in the skin, and, over time, the increase in the melanin bodies. Aryan tribes who migrated west and north benefited from a lack of melanin in the skin, and, over time, a decrease in melanin bodies in the skin.

The most extreme examples of this can produce people whose skin is as dark as that of Africans:

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1878/4511/f/16270-Hindu-holy-men-0.jpg

(The search criterion which yielded that result was "Hindu," and the image is entitled "Hindu holy men.")

The term "race" has no scientific basis, and has nothing to do with evolution, other than that "racial" appearances result from evolutionary circumstances which apply to us all, such as the presence of melanin and melanin bodies in the skin. Race is only an ethnological term, and in fact is an increasingly discredited term even in the field of ethnology. The most striking evidence found to date that "racial" typing is superficial and false, comes in the case of the Lemba of South Africa. This tribe of Bantu speaking people have long had a tradition that they descended from Jews who fled Israel at the time of the Assyrian invasion, more than 2700 years ago. They have semitic-sounding clan names, practice infant circumcision, and "kosher-like" butchering rituals with cattle, and have long claimed to follow a religion similar to Jawist Jewish tradition. Dr. David Goldstein, of the Oxford Univesity, conducted studies on the genetic material from these people, and makes the comment:

"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

When the Lemba and Jews met, they certainly did not seem, superficially, to be descended from the same ancestors:

http://www.evc.org/screening/images/blacks_jews.jpg

************************************************

I am never surprised, though, to see conservative christians embracing racist beliefs.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 12:55 pm
And homophobia.

Thank you, Set. Learned something new today.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:04 pm
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Why do the variations between the races exist if one did not evolve from another?

And why did the variations spread thru the population of the race if these variations did not confer survival advantages?


This was a rather dull-witted series of questions, which demonstrates how much you don't know. Peole in hot, sunny climates produced more melanin and more melanin bodies in the skin. The melanin absorbs radiation, and the melanin bodies give off heat. The body only produces these in response to the climatic conditions. But all humans have melanin and melanin bodies in their skin. People who live in cold climates don't produce melanin in anything like the amount that those in hot climates do--to fail to absorb radiation and to give off heat would be a liability in such situations. But that doesn't make them different "races," there is no such thing. All humans will adapt in the same way. So, for example, almost all Europeans (and possibly all Europeans--there simply had not been a complete "European" genome study done to be certain) are descended at least in part from "Aryan" people who migrated into Europe in pre-historic times--the evidence is in language and cultural artifacts, and is unassailable from a scientific standpoint.

But Aryans also migrated south into the Indian subcontinent. So, for example, i found the image below by simply searching for "Indo-Aryan" with a Google image search:

http://www.pg.com/science/skincare/Skin_tws_38/skin_tws_38.jpg

Those children have dark brown eyes, black hair, and "dusky" skin. That is an adaptation to the climate of the Indian subcontinent.

With that same search, i got this result:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Indo-aryans.JPG

Aryan tribes who migrated south benefited from the increase in melanin in the skin, and, over time, the increase in the melanin bodies. Aryan tribes who migrated west and north benefited from a lack of melanin in the skin, and, over time, a decrease in melanin bodies in the skin.

The most extreme examples of this can produce people whose skin is as dark as that of Africans:

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1878/4511/f/16270-Hindu-holy-men-0.jpg

(The search criterion which yielded that result was "Hindu," and the image is entitled "Hindu holy men.")

The term "race" has no scientific basis, and has nothing to do with evolution, other than that "racial" appearances result from evolutionary circumstances which apply to us all, such as the presence of melanin and melanin bodies in the skin. Race is only an ethnological term, and in fact is an increasingly discredited term even in the field of ethnology. The most striking evidence found to date that "racial" typing is superficial and false, comes in the case of the Lemba of South Africa. This tribe of Bantu speaking people have long had a tradition that they descended from Jews who fled Israel at the time of the Assyrian invasion, more than 2700 years ago. They have semitic-sounding clan names, practice infant circumcision, and "kosher-like" butchering rituals with cattle, and have long claimed to follow a religion similar to Jawist Jewish tradition. Dr. David Goldstein, of the Oxford Univesity, conducted studies on the genetic material from these people, and makes the comment:

"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

When the Lemba and Jews met, they certainly did not seem, superficially, to be descended from the same ancestors:

http://www.evc.org/screening/images/blacks_jews.jpg

************************************************

I am never surprised, though, to see conservative christians embracing racist beliefs.


I think your take on how the races have different skin colors would not be shared by most evolutionists.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:07 pm
Your sentence stumbled, fell and died at the point at which you deployed the verb "to think."
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:09 pm
And Adolph was so proud of his Aryan race. Go figure.

I know this is an incredibly basic question which probably has a simple answer:

Do you think it possible that one or another variation of homo sapiens will develop a trait which would define a new species?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:19 pm
It is certainly possible, but it is improbable. Natural selection reacts in response to environmental factors, and the human race removed the environment as a factor in survival except in the most extreme conditions (fire, flood, earthquake, volcano, storm, etc.) literally tens of thousands of years ago. The dominant species, homo sapiens sapiens, either eliminated other homo species by competition, or absorbed them (there is a minority opinion, for example, that homo neanderthalis was "subsumed" by homo sapiens sapiens).

The human race has removed their memory and their evolutionary process from their bodies and deposited it in libraries, research institutes and universities. Writing, printing and general literacy mean that we no longer need rely on physical evolution to survive in our world. Any major climatic change powerful enough to overcome our ability to manipulate our environment would be more likely to destroy us than to change us.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:29 pm
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Why do the variations between the races exist if one did not evolve from another?

And why did the variations spread thru the population of the race if these variations did not confer survival advantages?


This was a rather dull-witted series of questions, which demonstrates how much you don't know. Peole in hot, sunny climates produced more melanin and more melanin bodies in the skin. The melanin absorbs radiation, and the melanin bodies give off heat. The body only produces these in response to the climatic conditions. But all humans have melanin and melanin bodies in their skin. People who live in cold climates don't produce melanin in anything like the amount that those in hot climates do--to fail to absorb radiation and to give off heat would be a liability in such situations. But that doesn't make them different "races," there is no such thing. All humans will adapt in the same way. So, for example, almost all Europeans (and possibly all Europeans--there simply had not been a complete "European" genome study done to be certain) are descended at least in part from "Aryan" people who migrated into Europe in pre-historic times--the evidence is in language and cultural artifacts, and is unassailable from a scientific standpoint.

But Aryans also migrated south into the Indian subcontinent. So, for example, i found the image below by simply searching for "Indo-Aryan" with a Google image search:

(image removed to save space, see image above)

Those children have dark brown eyes, black hair, and "dusky" skin. That is an adaptation to the climate of the Indian subcontinent.

With that same search, i got this result:

(image removed to save space, see image above)

Aryan tribes who migrated south benefited from the increase in melanin in the skin, and, over time, the increase in the melanin bodies. Aryan tribes who migrated west and north benefited from a lack of melanin in the skin, and, over time, a decrease in melanin bodies in the skin.

The most extreme examples of this can produce people whose skin is as dark as that of Africans:

(image removed to save space, see image above)

(The search criterion which yielded that result was "Hindu," and the image is entitled "Hindu holy men.")

The term "race" has no scientific basis, and has nothing to do with evolution, other than that "racial" appearances result from evolutionary circumstances which apply to us all, such as the presence of melanin and melanin bodies in the skin. Race is only an ethnological term, and in fact is an increasingly discredited term even in the field of ethnology. The most striking evidence found to date that "racial" typing is superficial and false, comes in the case of the Lemba of South Africa. This tribe of Bantu speaking people have long had a tradition that they descended from Jews who fled Israel at the time of the Assyrian invasion, more than 2700 years ago. They have semitic-sounding clan names, practice infant circumcision, and "kosher-like" butchering rituals with cattle, and have long claimed to follow a religion similar to Jawist Jewish tradition. Dr. David Goldstein, of the Oxford Univesity, conducted studies on the genetic material from these people, and makes the comment:

"The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

When the Lemba and Jews met, they certainly did not seem, superficially, to be descended from the same ancestors:

(image removed to save space, see image above)
************************************************

I am never surprised, though, to see conservative christians embracing racist beliefs.


I think your take on how the races have different skin colors would not be shared by most evolutionists.



Setanta wrote:
Your sentence stumbled, fell and died at the point at which you deployed the verb "to think."


Then we shall see if your Lamarckian view is held by others, or not.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 01:50 pm
It is not a Larmarckian view. The presence of melanin and melanin bodies is an evolutionary adaptation. The superficial appearance of the skin of different putative "races" is an example of that adaptation in action. All humans, regardless of their superficial appearance, have melanin and melanin bodies in their skin--which is the evolutionary adaptation. The response of the organ of the skin to radiation and heat shows the adaptation's benefit to the species.

You can prate all you wish about a "Lamarckian view." But you will never put your money where your big mouth is. Why don't you use the simple expedient of quoting an evolutionary biologist with valid credentials and no religious agenda saying that there are different "races," and that any one or several of them are "evolved" from other races? If it is true as you claim, you should have no problem presenting the evidence.

[url=http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=4340][b]The Medical Dictionary at Med Terms-dot-com[/b][/url] wrote:
Melanin: A skin pigment (substance that gives the skin its color). Dark-skinned people have more melanin than light- skinned people. Melanin also acts as a sunscreen and protects the skin from ultraviolet light.


Melanin also influences eye color:

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A734933][b]BBC[/b][/url] wrote:
Different Eye Colours

In a brown eye there is a lot of melanin in the anterior border layer. This absorbs the light and gives a brown velvety appearance.

In a blue eye there is not much melanin in the anterior border layer. The light passes into the stroma where the collagen fibres scatter the light back as blue.

In a green eye (or a hazel one) there is a variable level of melanin, so that some of the light is absorbed by the melanin and some is scattered by the collagen. The brown layer looks yellow as it is thinner, and so the yellow and blue mix to make green.

Red irides1 are a result of albinism. Albinism is where there is no melanin in the melanocytes at all. Therefore all of the blood vessels (in the iris and retina) are seen and a redder appearance is given. In practice only very few albinos have red eyes, the blue reflections of the collagen show up stronger and so most have blue/grey or even brown. The mixing of red and blue reflections can also give rise to violet eyes.


Why don't you step up with some evidence for once, rather than just running your mouth?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 02:00 pm
If real stopped running his mouth, he'd have nothing to post on a2k.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 02:25 pm
Differently adapted doesnt mean more evolved.
If youre a cReationist you believe that every island on the planet had its own set of animals and plants created for that island. When did all this creating happen? all at once? or was it done in shifts?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:10 pm
farmerman wrote:

If youre a cReationist you believe that every island on the planet had its own set of animals and plants created for that island.


Sez?

Why must I believe that?

How 'bout if it so happens that many species have attempted to live in a given area and the ones we see there now are the ones who've managed to survive and thrive?

I don't know anyone who believes the odd type of creation that you set forth, FM. (Doesn't mean there isn't. Just that I've never heard of it. But your contention that I believe it, or must believe it to be a creationist, is a little strange. Ok more than a little. )



farmerman wrote:
Differently adapted doesnt mean more evolved.


Did one (or more ) of the races evolve from another?

If so, then the variations produced are supposed to have conferred a survival advantage, eh?

If you don't want to call it 'more evolved' then call it what you will, but it's the same thing.

No comment on the Darwin quote, eh?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:20 pm
I'm following you here, RL. But, so far the differences in human species would, I believe, be defined as 'micro evolution'.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:31 pm
real life wrote:
farmerman wrote:

If youre a cReationist you believe that every island on the planet had its own set of animals and plants created for that island.


Sez?

Why must I believe that?

How 'bout if it so happens that many species have attempted to live in a given area and the ones we see there now are the ones who've managed to survive and thrive?

I don't know anyone who believes the odd type of creation that you set forth, FM. (Doesn't mean there isn't. Just that I've never heard of it. But your contention that I believe it, or must believe it to be a creationist, is a little strange. Ok more than a little. )



farmerman wrote:
Differently adapted doesnt mean more evolved.


Did one (or more ) of the races evolve from another?

If so, then the variations produced are supposed to have conferred a survival advantage, eh?

If you don't want to call it 'more evolved' then call it what you will, but it's the same thing.

No comment on the Darwin quote, eh?


Please define 'more evoloved' in context?
0 Replies
 
username
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:46 pm
No, one "race" did not evolve from another. Everybody living today, every single one of us, is descended from an original comparatively small population living in Africa. There is no evidence that we differ in any significant way from that original population. There are some superficial variations, like skin color, amongst different groups of peoples today, but compared to most species we have really very little genetic variability, because the initial population was probably no more than a few tens of thousands, and in evolutionary time terms we've been modern humans for relatively few generations (200,000 years give or take is an eyeblink.)

As Set said, EVERYBODY has melanin in the skin. That's why you tan. Everybody does (Yes, African-Americans tan too). The amount varies, even among so-called "races". Italians tend to be darker than Swedes for example. That's melanin. They also live in a hotter climate00populations around the Mediterranean tend to be darker than those near the Baltic. People living closer to the equator have even more. TYhere's selection for more melanin the hotter your climate. But everyone has some, and everyone can pretty much live in any climate other humans do. Does that mean in your terms people with more melanin are "more evolved", rl?

Consider cold climates. The more compact your body, the shorter in proportion your extremities are, the hairier you are, the more heat your body conserves, the better you can survive extreme cold. That's why highland Andes dwellers and Eskimos tend to be short, stocky and chunky, while Africans tend to be longer limbed and leaner. Does that make Eskimos "more evolved"? Or Africans, for that matter, when you also find lots of short, chunky Africans?

There is no scale, there is no linear relationship of qualities, there is no endpoint evolution is heading toward, so you could say something is closer to it, there is indeed no ranking of qualities, nor could you come up with a universally recognized one, that would make a sensible one.

There are some adaptations with different frequencies within different populations, but as set and farmer and others point out, repeatedly, those are superficial, modifications in frequency or intensity of traits we ALL share. We're all the same race, rl. You really are talking tendentious racist crap, and you really have no idea what you're talking about here.

And the Darwin quote has been superseded by a century and a half of advances in knowledge of what's gone on in human history, human evolution, and the human genome. Darwin knew essentially nothing, and was speculating on what might be, because all the major discoveries came after his time.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2007 03:56 pm
...that supported his theory of evolution.
0 Replies
 
 

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