65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:38 pm
gungasnake wrote:

Such petroglyphs exist today because indians came by and redid them every thirty or fifty years or so. The horns were added at a much later date.

Aside from dorsal spikes, the stegosaur had a spiked tail which no modern animal had. Indian lore mentions mishipashoo (the stegosaur) using his spiked tail as a weapon.

http://writersnoose.mu.nu/archives/005418.html



Theres this old game where you tell one person a sentence and then that person tells another and then that person tells another and at the end the last person says what they were told, which is often quite different than the original sentence.

This same type of game could be demonstrated here (and likely is).

Maybe the first person who made the pictograph was really drawing a bear. Maybe the next one wasn't a very good artist and made the neck too long. Maybe the next one thought spikes would make this animal more scary for the children. Maybe the next one, as you suggest, thought that HORNS would make it even scarier.

Maybe an illustation, that you admit has been modified by different generations, is not the best evidence to use to prove your claim.





Another possibility.

You've heard of King Kong, a giant gorilla. Maybe this picture is either a) a claim that some warrior or whatever fought a giant reptile (like a horned lizard, or another giant current day lizard (there are thousands of species) or b) the picture is not drawn to scale.




Another possibility.

This is just a fairy tale, or their equalivant of a movie. There's giant spiders in the move Harry Potter.

I bet that 1000 years from now someone (probably with your mental aptitude) will use the lifelike representation of those spiders to prove that giant spiders walked the earth.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 01:00 pm
rosborne979 wrote:


So let's get this straight, a picture is worth a thousand words, so you come up with a cartoon on a rock. So when that doesn't work, you come up with a native legend. On the path to evidence, you're walking backwards.



If you want thousands of words buy yourself a copy of Vine DeLoria's "Red Earth, White Lies" which talks about leftover dinosaurs and pleistocene animals in Indian oral traditions in some detail.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 01:08 pm
farmerman wrote:
gunga, why dont you quit while many of us only think youre a fool. You dont have to keep demonstrating it.


I'm aware that posting this kind of stuff here violates the Lord's dictum about casting pearls before swine, I do it for the benefit of the one or two people here who actually get something out of it. If I had somethng to say to you it would be in your language (e.g. "oink, oink, oink, oink, oink, squeeel, oink...)
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 01:16 pm
Well, now, if dragons drawn on rock aren't proof, how about dragons carved OF rock -

http://www.mexiko-lexikon.de/mexiko/images/f/f2/Mexlex_quetzalcoatl.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/thumb/b/bd/Marduk_tiamat.jpg/400px-Marduk_tiamat.jpg

I suppose next somebody will say Quetzalcoatl and Tiamat are just fairytale myth figures too .... Rolling Eyes



Quote:
The Evolution Crackpot Index



A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary contributions to biology.

1. A -5 point starting credit.

2. 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.

3. 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.

4. 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.

5. 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction.

6. 5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results of a widely accepted real experiment.

7. 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with defective keyboards).

8. 5 points for each mention of "Heackel", "Dawkin", "Steven Gould" or "Eldridge".

9. 10 points for each claim that genetics or evolution is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).

10. 10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this were evidence of sanity. An extra 5 points for citing your engineering, dentistry, medical or computing degree as authoritative in biology. An extra 5 points for a pseudomedical qualification (such as homeopathy or holistic massage).

11. 10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it.

12. 10 points for mailing your theory to someone you don't know personally and asking them not to tell anyone else about it, for fear that your ideas will be stolen.

13. 10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds any flaws in your theory, or to anyone who can prove evolution is true.

14. 10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at genetics, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations".

15. 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it.

16. 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or fails to provide a "mechanism".

17. 10 points for each claim that Punctuated Equilibrium Theory, or some similar recent view in biology, in evidence of creationism (or some similar view such as Intelligent Design or, or claim that modern biology is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence).

18. 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift" and that we need to go beyond Darwinism.

19. 20 points for suggesting that you or your hero deserve a Nobel prize.

20. 20 points for every use of religious or science fiction works or myths as if they were fact.

21. 20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined) ridicule accorded to your past theories.

22. 20 points for each use of the phrase "hidebound reactionary" or "Darwinist establishment" or cognates.

23. 20 points for each use of the phrase "self-appointed defender of the orthodoxy" or cognates.

24. 30 points for suggesting that a famous figure secretly disbelieved in a theory which he or she publicly supported (e.g., that Darwin recanted on his deathbed).

25. 30 points for suggesting that some major scientist, in his later years, was groping his way towards the ideas you now advocate.

26. 30 points for claiming that your theories were developed by a pre-industrial culture (without good evidence).

27. 40 points for comparing those who argue against your ideas to Nazis, eugenicists, stormtroopers, or brownshirts.

28. 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike.

29. 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.

30. 40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant, especially after their death, or for announcing the "death of Darwinism".)

31. 50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no concrete testable predictions, formal models, or exact hypotheses.

32. 10 points for every claim of lurker e-mail support.

33. 100 points for asserting that molecular evolution of complex proteins is impossible because of the large neutral gaps that selection would have to cross, or that there are boundaries between species or other groups of organisms that evolution cannot breach.


(While I wish I could claim credit for that index, I've gotta acknowledge I copied it from a UseNet newsgroup thread)

Oh ... and by my count, it seems to me gunga scores a little over 500 points on the scale - but of course, that's subjective. It might be interesting to see how others think gunga scores.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 03:34 pm
Timber, thats magnificent. could you PM me the link , or something like that.


gunga-dim say
Quote:
f Vine DeLoria's "Red Earth, White Lies" which talks about leftover dinosaurs and pleistocene animals in Indian oral traditions in some detail.
. This is another piece of 9/11 type bullshit, The Lakota legfends and those of the Passamaquoddy are similar. All that proves is that there was original communication while the Paleo cultures were spreading about. In Paleo times, the Columbian and wooly mammoths, the dire wolf, Smilodon, an Short faced beras were still about but in decline. We HAVE ewvidence, very strong evidence of that , freom bone deposits, tar pits, C14, and acidic peat bogs and terminal moraine deposits.
WE HAVE NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE regarding stegosaurs, and any other saurian . Deloria is just another Eric Von DEniken who needs a hug, sorta like gunga.

When someone is hellbent on accepting counbter factual stories without even learning about the real facts, theres a person wholl buy some swampland.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 10:30 pm
Vine DeLoria was president of the National Council of American Indnans two or three times and the best known native American author of the last century or thereabouts, his "Custer Died for Your Sins" and a couple of other works being standard university texts on Indian affairs. He was as good an expert on Indian oral traditions as there is, having put together a sort of a compendium of such which involved speaking to every storyteller and keeper of oral traditions from Alaska down to Tierra del Fuego, and he once told me if there was anything which totally floored him at first it was the extent to which most Indian tribes retain oral traditions about ancestors having to deal not only with ice age animals but with dinosaurs as well. They pretty much all view the 65 million year thing as a whiteman's fairytale.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 01:10 am
As pointed out to you earlier, gunga, the late Mr. DeLoria, while unarguably a widely respected (albeit stridently partisan) polemicist for the American Indian point of view and an able writer, is over his head when it comes to hard science.

Quote:
Red Earth, White Lies: Native Americas and the Myth of Scientific Fact (Note: premium subscription required)
John C. Whittaker


When I was a student, I admired Vine Deloria Jr.'s polemical history Custer Died for Your Sins, and I feel a personal sense of grievance now because his most recent book, Red Earth, White Lies: Native Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact, is so bad that I no longer feel I can trust anything he has written.

Sometimes when creationists shout to have their religious beliefs about the origins of the world taught in public schools as science, I want to ask them why they think the Bible version is a better choice than the Buddhist, or Hopi, or Zulu, or Sioux creation stories. Of course, it isn't, because all origin myths and other pieces of religious writings and oral traditions have, as their most important meaning, moral lessons about the relationships between humans, god or gods, and the universe. While they may, like parts of the Bible, reflect some real past events, they are rarely accurate guides to geology or history. Attempts to fit what we know about the past into any of dozens of different religious traditions resembles Cinderellas sisters' trying to wear her shoes: the result is dishonest mutilation of science, degradation and misinterpretation of great literature and moral wisdom, and hurtful bigotry toward other people. Vine Deloria Jr. has provided new proof of this in a wretched piece of Native American creationist claptrap that has all the flaws of the Biblical creationists he disdains.

Deloria is known as a skillful polemicist, and his fluent and occasionally witty writing is the only thing to recommend Red Earth, White Lies. His basic theme is that science is flawed, and native traditions offer a better way to understand the world. Specifically, the current scientific views of New World prehistory are all wrong and racist.

Deloria begins by explaining that when science dismissed Biblical literalism, other religious traditions were condemned as even less accurate. In chapter 3, he argues that the basis of modern science is evolution. His account of the racist uses of evolutionary theory is not too inaccurate, but his assumption that they still dominate science is. In any case, according to Deloria evolution is a flawed concept because there are no transitional fossils, and there are numerous "anomalies" that disprove the accepted sequence of human evolution.

In chapter 4, the idea of Pleistocene "Ice Ages" is made to seem implausible with some silly stories about the migrations of bison ("Mr. Bison"), selective citing of outdated evidence, and mixing of geological periods separated by millions of years. Archaeologists agree that the first humans in the New World, who crossed the Bering Strait "land bridge" from Asia to North America about 12,000 years ago, were the ancestors of modern Native Americans. This well-supported theory is not good enough for Deloria, who claims it is a fiction created to suggest that the Indians were latecomers to the New World and thus could be legitimately cheated out of their land. Deloria seems to feel that a religious fiction of "we were always here" provides more authority to Native American land claims.

In chapter 6, Deloria attacks the theory that the first migrants to the Americas (the ancestral Native Americans) caused the extinction of the mammoths and other Pleistocene megafauna. To him this is another denigration of native respect for the environment and justification for ongoing destruction. Some of his attacks on the theory and evidence for "Pleistocene overkill" are legitimate, and despite his claim that it is uncritically accepted, others have raised similar concerns, if less scathingly. Unfortunately, he prefers to believe that the megafauna perished in catastrophes so recent that vague Native American traditions can be claimed as memories of mammoths and saber-toothed cats. Chapters 6 and 7 are devoted to supporting this thesis with nineteenth-century accounts and a blissful ignorance of geology.

Not only were there large animals in the past, but people were larger too. Deloria takes traditions of "giants" or "tall ones" to refer (p. 167) to Pleistocene Americans, possibly Sasquatch, but more likely "the white-skinned race which forced the Salish, Sioux, and Algonkians out of the north country and then . . . migrated east and invaded western Europe, routed the Neanderthals, and are known as the Cro-Magnon peoples." Pleistocene animals and humans were extra-large, according to Deloria, because of higher percentages of C[O.sub.2] in the atmosphere, and both Native American and Biblical traditions remember these "giants" who had life spans of up to one thousand years until a "dump of cometary water" changed the atmosphere and initiated Deloria's quick-step ice age.

Chapters 7 and 8 are devoted to "correcting" geology by uncritical reference to native traditions, intentional blindness to basic geology, and loony "commonsense" arguments. For instance, geology does not, as he claims, proceed by first identifying index fossils, arranging them in an evolutionary order of simple to complex, claiming that geological strata are then in order, and finally using this to show that evolution took place. The geological sequence and the ordering of the fossil evidence depends on literally thousands of instances where a sequence of many layers, with consistent species of plants and animals, are deposited one on top of another in a single location.

Contrary to Deloria's claims, most anthropologists would agree that some oral traditions may reflect historical events, even recent geological events like the volcanic eruptions he discusses at length. Whether they actually do so must be judged on whether they plausibly fit the evidence, not by discarding the evidence when it contradicts the stories. A Hopi tradition of the eruption of Sunset Crater near Flagstaff, Arizona, (well dated from 1064 and perhaps continuing into the 1200s) is quite plausible and widely accepted by archaeologists, but to fit other possible eruption traditions to the most interesting mountains in their regions, Deloria is willing to discard atomic dating and vast bodies of geological evidence of the prehuman antiquity of the mountains.

In the final chapter, Deloria identifies areas where good research "will force open any breaches I have identified in the wall of scientific orthodoxy." Actually, while he has pretended to scholarly analysis in the preceding chapters, here he whips up the runaway horses of his imagination. Although "the majority of stories of origin suggest a creation in which people are given an awareness that they have been created" - which, by Deloria's logic, implies that the creation story must be true - he remains vague about creation. Perhaps he does not want to specify whether the first people fell from a land above the sky or migrated up from several levels of worlds beneath this current one, to mention only two of the many traditions.

Once living beings were created, he contends, there was a golden age that people remember in their traditions as having very different geological conditions from the present, with no rivers or normal meteorological phenomena, and a mist covering the earth. This world was destroyed by fire, that is, volcanism, but "higher spiritual entities warned enough people" to repopulate the earth. The volcanism was triggered by a blanket of extraterrestrial matter that produced what geologists think are sedimentary layers. He says "living fossil" species prove that the earth really has a very short history and tribal traditions even remember dinosaurs. The different climate with high C[O.sub.2] means that carbon 14 cannot be used for dating, and just like Biblical creationists, he cites some obviously incorrect radiocarbon dates, ignoring literally tens of thousands that fit expected sequences or can be tested against historical evidence. This is like saying that internal combustion engines are impossible just because your car does not start on a cold morning. But no matter what Deloria has to do to the evidence, he will do it, because "regardless of how many religious trappings have been attached to introduce lessons of morality, these [creation myths] are basically geological reports." He finishes with a final swish at archaeology, dismissing the idea that artifact styles changed slowly over thousands of years in favor of a vague, short prehistory where everyone lived together. Archaeologists have no accurate means of dating, he says, and can't tell the difference between prehistoric peoples anyway. This seems a poor position to take for his political goals, since if archaeology cannot provide the evidence of long native occupation of America, what is to prevent other crackpots from claiming that Columbus brought all the Indians with him in 1492, or that they are really Jews who fled the tower of Babel?

Deloria's style is drearily familiar to anyone who has read the Biblical creationist literature. At the core is a wishful attempt to discredit all science because some facts clash with belief systems. A few points will suffice to show how similar Deloria is to outspoken creationist author Duane Gish or any of his ilk.

1. Creationists of all stripes start with a religious story and either interpret the story to fit the geological facts or dismiss or ignore the facts because they do not fit the story. Deloria cites a Salish account (p. 98) that claims they were driven by other people from the north where there were ice mountains and strange animals. According to him, this may be a memory of glacial conditions, although it may seem rather vague to the unbiased reader.

2. The contradictions in religious traditions are ignored. Deloria has a worse problem than even Biblical literalists: there are dozens of completely different Native American creation myths. But Deloria is not worried because "each tribe had its own special relationship to the superior spiritual forces which governed the universe . . . . Tribal knowledge was therefore not fragmented and was valid within the historical and geographical scope of the people's experience" (p. 51). Deloria throughout weighs oral traditions with his thumb on the scale. He argues that if lots of different American Indian tribes have similar long-standing beliefs, they must reflect geological reality, but I am pretty sure he would be (rightly) skeptical about the reality of a hot place for unbelievers that is a widespread and ancient tradition among Christian sects.

3. Creationists reason that if scientists disagree, they must all be wrong. With little evidence on their side, creationists like to cite errors and arguments in science to show not just that some theories are to be doubted, but that scientists are really dumb. To carry this out, it helps if you use outdated information and ignore recent consensus in favor of antique controversy. Deloria constantly uses outmoded ideas of human evolution (e.g., "Neanderthals evolved into Cro-Magnons") as if they were current. He frequently cites information such as early dates that have been dismissed by later work, claiming for instance that the Calaveras skull dates from the Pliocene epoch and thus "calls into question the geological time scale itself." Of course, it was found in the 1860s by miners, and it was obvious long ago that any association it may have had with ancient deposits was a result of disturbance rather than great age. A recent radiocarbon date on the skull itself shows that it is only about 740 years old. His misinterpretations of the Bering Strait land bridge and Pleistocene geology are based on sources from the 1940s to the 1960s; thus he ignores more than thirty years of productive research. Of course, if he were to find that we still do not know everything or agree on all points today, he would feel equally vindicated. Meanwhile, he prefers to rely on pseudoscientific ideas like "dumps of cometary water," borrowed from Velikovsky's attempts to explain all of history and geology as the result of the earth's encounters with comets.

4. Creationists suffer from a lack of knowledge, often willful, of basic science. Dinosaur and mammoth bones on top of the ground do not mean they died yesterday, but that they were exposed by recent erosion. You cannot dismiss an earth history of millions of years, or a Native American prehistory of about twelve thousand years, unless you dismiss literally thousands of dates based on tree rings and atomic decay. If you dismiss those, you have to deny much of biology and physics; and anyone who eats apples, drives gasoline-powered cars, or uses electricity from nuclear reactors ought to concede that the principles of biology, geology, and physics are well founded and at least partly understood. Deloria does not like the idea of long, slow, ancient ice ages, so he suggests instead "cometary water dumps" or that the solar system might have "suddenly traveled through an area of intense cold in space," as if interstellar space was like the water in a swimming pool. The glacial processes of ice movement that Deloria sneers at are well documented in modern glaciers.

5. Most crackpots believe there is a scientific conspiracy to conceal the truth and suppress brilliant dissenters like themselves. Deloria has a couple of unsupported stories about the persecutions of people who have countered orthodox science. This makes me feel a bit better about writing a harsh review: whatever I say, Deloria and his supporters will not be hurt because I am just another academic trying to defend the status quo, namely politically and racially motivated theories that disadvantage Native Americans. According to Deloria (p. 41), we scientists even consider it permissible to maintain our status by lies because "the most fatal counterattack against entrenched authority will not be directed against their facts, but against their status." In making this claim about scientists, Deloria has described his own plan in a nutshell. He is willing to write a piece of dishonest scholarship because by attacking scientific authority, he thinks he can further his political goals. He doesn't consider this kind of thing very honorable when scientists do it, but it seems to be OK for him.

As an archaeologist, I found Deloria's unjustified hatred painful. If I have a political motivation in teaching American prehistory, it is to make the point that native cultures were and are as human, important, interesting, and worthy of understanding as the ancient Greeks, the Biblical Jews, and the historic colonists. Whatever its flaws, good archaeology has consistently fought racism and spoken out for diversity, preservation, and common humanity. It was archaeology that showed that Native Americans had an ancient history here and that their achievements were their own, not borrowed from "higher" civilizations of the Middle East or Europe. Sad to say, many of the creationist and crackpot theories of prehistory are subtly or openly racist, which is one reason archaeologists ought to confront them. As Deloria points out, the Biblical version of creation was interpreted to favor Western Christian cultures and even at times to relegate others to nonhuman status. Christianity and its followers received legal protection denied to native religions because Christianity was "real" religion and others were not.

While Deloria rightly condemns racist stereotypes of Native American culture, he is quite willing to say things like: "Religion . . . ceased to exist in America long ago. Indeed, any higher deity exists for Americans only insofar as he or she can guarantee great sex, lots of money, social prestige, a winning football team, and someone to hate." Science, according to Deloria, is also morally bankrupt, and all scientists are fools, tools, and conformists. In contrast, Indians are spiritually honest and in touch with the universe in ways other Americans cannot understand; their spiritual leaders can control weather, predict the future, and heal the sick. Some political activists and the New Age Indian wanna-bes will eat this up and wallow happily in the drainage ditch of antiscience, but unfortunately, Deloria's reputation will also attract less biased readers who deserve an honest account of American prehistory. Contrary to Deloria's complaint that he cannot find any coherent or believable explanations of current theories of the peopling of the new world, Brian Fagan's Ancient North America (Thames and Hudson 1995) and The Great Journey (Thames and Hudson 1987) are two of several read-able and well-documented books.

Both the great achievements of Native Americans and the sorry record of United States dealings with them should be widely and honestly taught. I would like to think that eventually enough justice will be done that modern Native Americans will no longer feel themselves a victimized minority, and an articulate leader like Deloria will not feel the need to put his best foot forward into a cow pie of politically motivated, false prehistory.

John C. Whittaker teaches anthropology and archaeology at Grinnell College, Iowa.



What Deloria has managed to do is irretrievably impeach his own credibility and remove himself from serious consideration through the painstaking effort he has devoted to demonstrating he cares more to blame Eurocentric White Society for all the ills and misfortunes to have come upon the Native American and the rest of this planet's disadvantaged peoples than he cares for - or even knows about - the state and practice either of legitimate science or academic integrity. Quite simply put, gunga, Deloria for all his admirable qualities qualifies - in singularly exemplary, near spectacular-beyond-equal manner - as an absolutely classic crackpot. I'm unsurprised you might actually have spoken with him, and I'm thoroughly unsurprised you hold him a hero.

Those who embrace, endorse, and forward absurdities such as those so abundantly evidenced throughout your posts, gunga, I readilly can believe simply and honestly haven't a clue. Masquerades such as Deloria and ilk, on the other hand, haven't an excuse.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 03:48 am
timberlandko wrote:
As pointed out to you ......


Like I say, I'm going to have to start replying to you blowhards in your own language.


Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink Oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink, oink, oink,oink,oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, oink oink oink oink, oink, ...........
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 06:07 am
For the benefit of the handful of rational people hwo might come across this and get something out of it.....


Extinction is the flip side of evolution, and standard science theories dealing with the one are just as fubar as those dealing with the other.

The world lost pretty much all of its remaing large mammals around 12000 years ago according to standard dating schemes and nobody in the normal parts of academia has any decent idea as to why. Scientists generally accept the idea of global-scale catastrophes now so long as they are relegated to come comfortable and psychically safe distance in the past but nobody wants to talk about anything like that within the age of man; aside from problems involving psychic security, acknowledging the reality of something like the biblical flood story would do major violence to the theory of geological ages and destroy the theory of evolutoin which depends upon them.

The standard theory which is actually taught in universities to account for the dieout of the remaining large mammals 12000 years ago is the "overkill hypothesis" which assigns 100% of the blame for the mass dieout to American Indian ancestors. This is because, if you eliminate the idea of global catastrophes (and they do), the only other agency which anybody knows of which could plausibly exterminate entire species of large animals off of a continent the size of North America is man.

In real life, American Indians never dealt with animal life that way and they never had the motor vehicles and automatic weaponry and C3 capacity which would have been needed for so vast a campaign of extermination.

Thus it happens, that Indians get pissed off reading and hearing about this sort of bullshit, and Vine DeLoria wrote a book, "Red Earth, White Lies", exposing all such theories as bullshit.

Aside from everything else, Vine describes the evidence which you actually do find in Canada, Alaska, and Siberia, and the gigantic muck deposits amounting to the mangled remains of the forests, animal life, and soil of the remains of some previous existence including the disarticulated bones of vast numbers of large animals caught up in some overwhelming disaster, either the biblical flood or something not much different from it. Those muck deposits cover much of the northern hemisphere and prevail from the ground to depths of hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet.

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/deloria/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555913881/homeworkinguk/

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/1555913881.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 06:11 am
timberlandko wrote:
As pointed out to you earlier, gunga,......



http://www.webwhispers.org/newspics/jan04/Blowhard.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 07:33 am
BElieve it or not there are some very credible American Indian Historians who, like dan Lomahaftewa, smile at Deloria's attempts to alter facts. Deloria doesnt "believe" anything about the bering STraights Ice Bridge, and hes tried in a number of pubs besides the ones listed to "reinvent evidence". His son , Philip Deloria is a Yale Phd in native culture, and , along with a number of other Native American scholars and Anglo scholars put together a really GOOD piece of scholarly work that carefully disassembles some of the myths by guys like Deloria and Oklahombi (who was awarded the highest military honor by the fRench Govt, but not ours).

THE NATIVE AMERICANS, published by Turner in 1993 recognized some of the written contributions of many "NAtivists" and their written diatribes against the US Indian Affairs policy. . For Vine Deloria's family had been a recipient of the US Govts malevolent policy towards the Sioux of Pine Ridge (where Deloria was from). After WWI, many of the families at Pine Ridge were stripped of their not insignificant wealth by the BIA when it just came in and redistributed their lands to the influx of white farmers. Delorias family, had originally been quite wealthy and, were nstead. left penniless and in long term poverty. SO Delorias writing didnt grow out of a strict "scholarly" pursuit, It was a vendetta by publishing, in almost all his books Ive read, including The Nations Within, hes taken the position of altering evidence and archeology. I guess, had my family been treated as badly as his, I too would want some type of legacy left that would cast atlatl points at past "scholarship"

The American Indian Museum is a wealth of information re many American Indian writers, historian , artists etc. The museum is pulled tgether to celebrate their POV in history. Their docents, while mostly all amateur folklorists and archeologists are aware of the revisionism that many American Indian legends have ateempted to forward, and they collectively state that
"Their oral traditions are rife with the tools of mythology and tales that celebrated their PAn Continental Oral traditions". In other words, they dont believe this stuff that gunga tries to foist as truth. The American Indian scholars use theri own folklore to connect and assemble a realistic hitory of their pre-history. They use oral tradition as much as they use physical artifcats to understand the populating of our continents as the Wisconsin Ice sheet pulsed and ultimately retreated.
However, theyre not stupid in accepting some kaka that "stegosaurs were living on the shores of Lake Superior" in the last 12000 years, and the Indians were busy sketching them like Le Fauve
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 07:52 am
Heres a little chunk of a sons memory of his dad
Quote:
I leave it to others to testify to the public significance of Vine Deloria Jr. His political commitment, his wicked sense of humor, his ability to anticipate and thus to lead, even his path through his own history - these things are better discussed by others. What I am able to offer, however, is something few others can: A small sense of the backstage of his life. I do so not in the mode of the tell-all family confessional (there's nothing gossipy here), but as another way of exploring his achievements.

My father organizes time and space in curious ways. In every house in which we've lived, he has carved out an office space, marked always by the pine board bookshelves we built and rebuilt and rebuilt again each time we moved. Into those shelves, arranged by subject, has gone his ever-growing library. He is meticulous in ordering things - shelving, filing cabinets, banker's boxes, card files - but that does not prevent piles of papers from being scattered everywhere, testimony to the volume of information he is working through. Almost every office has had a canine writing companion: JD (for ''Just Dog''), New Dog, Harper the Dog, Comet, Marlowe and, presently, Bob the Dog. His most productive years, I suspect, can be indexed to the affection and endurance of particular hounds.
I wont waste space by printing the whole thing but Philip Deloria , presently an associate professor of history at U of Michigan recognizes the "unique" view his father has taken in his writing.. You can google up Philip Deloria as well as I.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 03:27 pm
gungasnake wrote:
For the benefit of the handful of rational people hwo might come across this and get something out of it.....

"Rational people" as a rule are not given to falsification and/or fabrication of data, conscious, knowing, misstatement of fact, biggoted rantings, straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks, or endorsing those who do.


Quote:
Extinction is the flip side of evolution, and standard science theories dealing with the one are just as fubar as those dealing with the other.

What is "fubar" is the mindset requisite to the forwarding of any such patently absurd, glaringly ignorant, wholly fallacious proposition.

Quote:
The world lost pretty much all of its remaing large mammals around 12000 years ago according to standard dating schemes and nobody in the normal parts of academia has any decent idea as to why.

Nonsense. The POV you express merely ignores the myriad plausible, evidence-backed, consistent with prediction, conformant to known and accepted scientific law, theory, and principle, logical, defensible postulates.

Quote:
Scientists generally accept the idea of global-scale catastrophes now so long as they are relegated to come comfortable and psychically safe distance in the past but nobody wants to talk about anything like that within the age of man

I submit that by the record that is a demostrably false statement.

Quote:
aside from problems involving psychic security, acknowledging the reality of something like the biblical flood story would do major violence to the theory of geological ages and destroy the theory of evolutoin which depends upon them.

I submit that the very notion of a "biblical flood" in the sense and context required by the proposition you appear to endorse is high on the list of humankinds most explicitly, emphatically, unambiguously debunked fairytales.

Quote:
The standard theory which is actually taught in universities to account for the dieout of the remaining large mammals 12000 years ago is the "overkill hypothesis" which assigns 100% of the blame for the mass dieout to American Indian ancestors. This is because, if you eliminate the idea of global catastrophes (and they do), the only other agency which anybody knows of which could plausibly exterminate entire species of large animals off of a continent the size of North America is man.

I submit that statement is contrary to fact, and I submit further, such already has been demonstrated, pointed out to you specifically, and in quite similar context:
[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2317547#2317547]IDuring an earlier discussion, in direct response to you, gunga, timber[/url] wrote:
... No argument that human predation played a role in the late Pliestoce megafauna extinctions, but it certainly wasn't the only player, and likely was not the main player.

Quote:
Blame North America megafauna extinction on climate change, not human ancestors

DATE: Oct. 24, 2001


Even such mythical detectives as Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot would have difficulty trying to find the culprit that killed the mammoths, mastodons and other megafauna that once roamed North America.

Scientists have been picking over the bones and evidence for more than three decades but cannot agree on what caused the extinction of many of the continent's large mammals. Now, in two new papers, a University of Washington archaeologist disputes the so-called overkill hypothesis that pins the crime on the New World's first humans, calling it a "faith-based credo" that bows to Green politics.

"While the initial presentation of the overkill hypothesis was good and productive science, it has now become something more akin to a faith-based policy statement than to a scientific statement about the past," said Donald Grayson, a UW anthropology professor

Writing in the current issue of the Journal of World Prehistory and in a paper to be published in a forthcoming issue of the Bulletin of the Florida Museum of Natural History, Grayson said there are dangerous environmental implications of using overkill hypothesis as the basis for introducing exotic mammals into arid western North America."

He looks askance at the idea of introducing modern elephants, camels and other large herbivores into the southwest United States.

"Overkill proponents have argued that these animals would still be around if people hadn't killed them and that ecological niches still exist for them. Those niches do not exist. Otherwise the herbivores would still be there."

If early humans didn't kill North America's megafauna, then what did?

Grayson points to climate shifts, during the late Pleistocene epoch, which ended about 10,000 years ago, and subsequent changes in weather and plants as the likely culprits in the demise of North America's megafauna. The massive ice sheets that covered much of the Northern Hemisphere began retreating. In North America, this icy mantle prevented Arctic weather systems from extending into the mid-continent. Seasonal weather swings were less dramatic and didn't reach as far south as they presently do. But with this change, the climate became more similar to today's, marked by cold winters and warm summers.

As a result, an unusual patchwork aggregation of plant communities ceased to exit and there was a massive reorganization of biotic communities. At the same time, new data developed by Russell Graham, a paleontologist with the Denver Museum, shows that small mammals such as shrews and voles were moving about the landscape and becoming locally extinct. And there were the extinctions of some 35 genera of large North American mammals, including horses, camels, bears, giant sloths, saber-toothed cats, mastodons and mammoths.

The overkill hypothesis was proposed by retired University of Arizona ecologist Paul Martin in 1967 and its basic arguments haven't changed since. It claims large mammal extinctions occurred 11,000 years ago; Clovis people were the first to enter North America, about 11,000 years ago; Clovis people were hunters who preyed on a diverse set of now-extinct large mammals; records from islands show that human colonists cause extinction; therefore, Clovis people caused extinctions.

"Martin's theory is glitzy, easy to understand and fits with our image of ourselves as all-powerful," said Grayson "It also fits well with the modern Green movement and the Judeo-Christian view of our place in the world. But there is no reason to believe that the early peoples of North America did what Martin's argument says they did."

First of all there is no compelling evidence that the majority of the extinctions occurred during Clovis times, said Grayson. Only 15 genera can be shown to have survived beyond 12,000 years ago and into Clovis times. For 30 years, overkill proponents have assumed that since some genera can be shown to have become extinct around 11,000 years ago, all the big North American mammals became extinct at that time, he said.

"That's an enormous assumption, even though there is no compelling evidence of it in North America," Grayson said.

He also said overkill proponents have consistently ignored the possibility that the Clovis people were not the first humans in the New World. They reject evidence from a site in Monte Verde, Chile, showing human occupation that dates some 12,500 to 12,800 years ago. Monte Verde also has yielded some material that may push human occupation back to 33,000 years before the present.

Well-accepted Clovis sites dating between 10,800 and 11,300 years ago have been found in North America, and distinctive, fluted projectile points mark this culture. Clovis artifacts have been found with mammoth remains in more than a dozen sites across the Great Plains and the southwestern United States.

Grayson said there is no reason to doubt that these people scavenged and hunted large mammals. But he cautioned that while mammoths, mastodons, horses and camels were the most common large mammals in the late Pleistocene - 10,000 to 20,000 years ago - only mammoths are found at kill sites associated with Clovis people.

As for the claim that human colonization of the world's islands resulted in widespread vertebrate extinction, Grayson said this did not occur simply because of human hunting.

"No one has ever securely documented the prehistoric extinction of any vertebrate as a result human predation, though it may certainly have happened. In virtually all cases, when people colonize an area many other changes follow - fire, erosion and the introduction of a wide range of predators and competitors.

"We do know that human colonists caused extinctions in isolated, tightly bound island settings, but islands are fundamentally different from continents," he added. "The overkill hypothesis attempts to compare the incomparable and there is no evidence of human-caused environmental change in North America. But there is evidence of climate change. Overkill is bad science because it is immune to the empirical record."
###
For more information, contact Grayson at (206) 543-5587 or [email protected]


Quote:
DNA Evidence Weighs In on Ice Age Extinction Debate

The end of the Pleistocene epoch brought with it widespread extinctions of large mammals, such as saber-toothed cats and mammoths. Ancient bison, too, were threatened with elimination, but they managed to survive. The two leading theories of what caused the precipitous population drop focus on environmental shifts and pressure from human hunters. A genetic analysis published in the current issue of the journal Science lends support to the hypothesis that climate change was the culprit.

Beth Shapiro of Oxford University and her colleagues analyzed mitochondrial DNA from 352 bison fossils recovered from eastern and western Beringia (the landmass that includes Alaska, Canada and Siberia), North America, China and Russia. In addition, the scientists performed radiocarbon dating on 220 of the samples. They determined that the genetic diversity of the bison population dropped off drastically around 37,000 years ago. "The timing of this decline correlates with environmental changes associated with the onset of the last glacial cycle," the team reports, "whereas archaeological evidence does not support the presence of large populations of humans in eastern Beringia until more than 15,000 years later.

The authors suggest that their findings will help inform the debate about end-Pleistocene megafauna extinctions because "they offer the first evidence of the initial decline of a population, rather than simply the resulting extinction event." The researchers do not rule out human intervention entirely, however, because some disputed archaeological evidence suggests a low number of humans may have been present at the time. Future studies with more samples from around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, they say, should help clarify the course of extinction events. --Sarah Graham



Quote:
Climate Change Blamed for Pleistocene Megafauna Bust and Boom

Around 13,000 years ago, the world's climate began to change. Seas rose, glaciers retreated and ecosystems began to transform. At roughly the same time, humans arrived in North America, perhaps attracted by migrating game or newly hospitable land. Over the course of the next few millennia a host of indigenous large-bodied mammals, such as the mammoth, died out. Scientists have long debated whether climate warming or human hunting brought about this megafauna extinction. New radiocarbon dating results support the environmental explanation.
Arctic biologist R. Dale Guthrie of the University of Alaska-Fairbanks, compiled radiocarbon dates for the permafrost-preserved fossils of six species--mammoths, horses, bison, moose, wapiti and humans--found in Alaska and Yukon Territory. The former two disappeared from the continent around 12,000 years ago as the latter four multiplied and spread.

He found that the horse Equus ferus had been declining long before humans arrived and disappeared a full 1,000 years before mammoths. This knocks out the so-called keystone theory, which holds that humans hunted the mammoths to extinction, causing a change in vegetation that subsequently precipitated other extinctions. And the mammoth's persistence over the next 1,000 years argues against precipitous overhunting.

A change in vegetation, however, does seem to hold the key to understanding this radical transformation, Guthrie argues. Prior to the warming, this geographic area lacked trees and provided only sparse forage. This would have given mammoths, horses and other related species a competitive advantage, because they can wrest sufficient nutrients from a high volume of low quality feed. But as the climate shifted, the so-called mammoth steppe became the environment we recognize today, characterized by shrubs, tundra and forests. This type of forage favors grazers such as bison, wapiti and moose. There are no signs of these species in the region before 13,000 years ago, but they appear to have proliferated rapidly thereafter.


"Archaeological refuse clearly illustrates the crucial role [in human colonization] of large mammal (at least bison and wapiti) resources as well as the increasing numbers of migratory waterfowl and salmonids in the Holocene," Guthrie writes in a paper published today in Nature. "These new data indicate that humans might have been not so much riding down the demise of [the] Pleistocene mammoth steppe as they were being carried into [the area] on a unique tide of resource abundance." In other words, at least in Alaska and the Yukon, climate change doomed the mammoths, but allowed humans, bison and other species to prosper. --David Biello




Quote:
Did ancient Chinese creature spread tuberculosis?

A new study suggests the extinction of mastodons and mammoths in North America may have come from a tuberculosis pandemic that orginated in China among an ancient mammoth-like creature.

Mastodons were ancient elephants that resembled mammoths, but were shorter and had less hair. Mammoths and mastodons roamed the North American continent before mysteriously disappearing about 10,000 years ago during the last major Ice Age.

Scientists examining mastodon skeletons found a type of bone damage in several of the animal's foot bones that is found only in sufferers of tuberculosis. Bones attacked by tuberculosis suffer a type of damage in which bone beneath cartilage is scooped out, or "excavated."

Tuberculosis is a bacterial infection that commonly infects the lungs, but can also affect other parts of the body, such as organs and bones.

Only about 1 to 7 percent of infected humans develop bone damage. The fact that more than half of the mastodon skeletons examined had the bone lesions suggests tuberculosis was a "hyperdisease" that afflicted a large percentage of the North American mastodon population.

The disease would have weakened both animals, making them easier for humans to hunt and kill. They also would have been more vulnerable to changes in the climate.

Scientists have often theorized that consumption by humans and the onslaught of the Ice Age caused their extinction in North America.

Researchers Bruce Rothschild of the Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine and Richard Laub of the Buffalo Museum of Science in New York looked at 113 mastodon skeletons and found that 52 percent showed signs of tuberculosis.

So, how did tuberculosis -- first documented in a 500,000-year-old buffalo in China -- migrate to North America and infect mastodons and mammoths?

In a separate study, Rothschild and Larry Martin from the Natural History Museum in Kansas found similar tuberculosis-caused bone damage in North American bovids. Bovids are a group of animals that include bison, musk oxen and bighorn sheep.

Tuberculosis appears to have been just as prevalent in the bovids as in the mastodons, but the record of infection for this group of animals stretches back much further -- at least 75,000 years.

It is believed bison and other bovids originated in Asia and crossed into North America by way of the Bering Land Bridge, which connected the two continents.

Rothschild and Martin think some of the bovids were probably infected with tuberculosis when they crossed the land bridge. The bovids could have spread the disease to mastodons and other species, possibly even humans, Rothschild said.

The infected mastodons were different ages and sizes and came from all over North America. They also lived at different times. The disease appears to have struck the creatures as early as 34,000-years-ago and persisted in the species until as recently as 10,000 years ago.

Both the mastodon and bovid studies will be detailed in upcoming issues of the science journal Naturwissenchaften.



Quote:
In real life, American Indians never dealt with animal life that way and they never had the motor vehicles and automatic weaponry and C3 capacity which would have been needed for so vast a campaign of extermination.

Thus it happens, that Indians get pissed off reading and hearing about this sort of bullshit, and Vine DeLoria wrote a book, "Red Earth, White Lies", exposing all such theories as bullshit.

DeLoria exposed himself, his hypothesis, and his methodology as exemplar of crackpot psuedoscientific, agenda-driven flummery.

Quote:
Aside from everything else, Vine describes the evidence which you actually do find in Canada, Alaska, and Siberia, and the gigantic muck deposits amounting to the mangled remains of the forests, animal life, and soil of the remains of some previous existence including the disarticulated bones of vast numbers of large animals caught up in some overwhelming disaster, either the biblical flood or something not much different from it. Those muck deposits cover much of the northern hemisphere and prevail from the ground to depths of hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet.

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/deloria/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555913881/homeworkinguk/

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/1555913881.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


As quite recently brought to your attention, gunga,
Quote:
according to Deloria evolution is a flawed concept because there are no transitional fossils, and there are numerous "anomalies" that disprove the accepted sequence of human evolution.

In chapter 4, the idea of Pleistocene "Ice Ages" is made to seem implausible with some silly stories about the migrations of bison ("Mr. Bison"), selective citing of outdated evidence, and mixing of geological periods separated by millions of years. Archaeologists agree that the first humans in the New World, who crossed the Bering Strait "land bridge" from Asia to North America about 12,000 years ago, were the ancestors of modern Native Americans. This well-supported theory is not good enough for Deloria, who claims it is a fiction created to suggest that the Indians were latecomers to the New World and thus could be legitimately cheated out of their land. Deloria seems to feel that a religious fiction of "we were always here" provides more authority to Native American land claims.

In chapter 6, Deloria attacks the theory that the first migrants to the Americas (the ancestral Native Americans) caused the extinction of the mammoths and other Pleistocene megafauna. To him this is another denigration of native respect for the environment and justification for ongoing destruction. Some of his attacks on the theory and evidence for "Pleistocene overkill" are legitimate, and despite his claim that it is uncritically accepted, others have raised similar concerns, if less scathingly. Unfortunately, he prefers to believe that the megafauna perished in catastrophes so recent that vague Native American traditions can be claimed as memories of mammoths and saber-toothed cats. Chapters 6 and 7 are devoted to supporting this thesis with nineteenth-century accounts and a blissful ignorance of geology ...

... Pleistocene animals and humans were extra-large, according to Deloria, because of higher percentages of C[O.sub.2] in the atmosphere, and both Native American and Biblical traditions remember these "giants" who had life spans of up to one thousand years until a "dump of cometary water" changed the atmosphere and initiated Deloria's quick-step ice age.

Chapters 7 and 8 are devoted to "correcting" geology by uncritical reference to native traditions, intentional blindness to basic geology, and loony "commonsense" arguments. For instance, geology does not, as he claims, proceed by first identifying index fossils, arranging them in an evolutionary order of simple to complex, claiming that geological strata are then in order, and finally using this to show that evolution took place. The geological sequence and the ordering of the fossil evidence depends on literally thousands of instances where a sequence of many layers, with consistent species of plants and animals, are deposited one on top of another in a single location ...

... Once living beings were created, he contends, there was a golden age that people remember in their traditions as having very different geological conditions from the present, with no rivers or normal meteorological phenomena, and a mist covering the earth. This world was destroyed by fire, that is, volcanism, but "higher spiritual entities warned enough people" to repopulate the earth. The volcanism was triggered by a blanket of extraterrestrial matter that produced what geologists think are sedimentary layers. He says "living fossil" species prove that the earth really has a very short history and tribal traditions even remember dinosaurs. The different climate with high C[O.sub.2] means that carbon 14 cannot be used for dating, and just like Biblical creationists, he cites some obviously incorrect radiocarbon dates, ignoring literally tens of thousands that fit expected sequences or can be tested against historical evidence ...

... Deloria constantly uses outmoded ideas of human evolution (e.g., "Neanderthals evolved into Cro-Magnons") as if they were current. He frequently cites information such as early dates that have been dismissed by later work, claiming for instance that the Calaveras skull dates from the Pliocene epoch and thus "calls into question the geological time scale itself." Of course, it was found in the 1860s by miners, and it was obvious long ago that any association it may have had with ancient deposits was a result of disturbance rather than great age. A recent radiocarbon date on the skull itself shows that it is only about 740 years old. His misinterpretations of the Bering Strait land bridge and Pleistocene geology are based on sources from the 1940s to the 1960s; thus he ignores more than thirty years of productive research. Of course, if he were to find that we still do not know everything or agree on all points today, he would feel equally vindicated. Meanwhile, he prefers to rely on pseudoscientific ideas like "dumps of cometary water," borrowed from Velikovsky's attempts to explain all of history and geology as the result of the earth's encounters with comets ... Dinosaur and mammoth bones on top of the ground do not mean they died yesterday, but that they were exposed by recent erosion. You cannot dismiss an earth history of millions of years, or a Native American prehistory of about twelve thousand years, unless you dismiss literally thousands of dates based on tree rings and atomic decay ... Deloria does not like the idea of long, slow, ancient ice ages, so he suggests instead "cometary water dumps" or that the solar system might have "suddenly traveled through an area of intense cold in space," as if interstellar space was like the water in a swimming pool. The glacial processes of ice movement that Deloria sneers at are well documented in modern glaciers ...
[/b]

Now, either you may demonstrate, objectively, empirically, and authoritatively that Whittaker's criticisms and refutations of DeLoria's claims and methodology be in error, that Whittaker has wrongfully accused DeLoria of fabrication, mischaracterization, and prevarication in the interest of agenda, that DeLoria proceeds from academically sound, scientifically valid premise, or you may persist in the absolutely indefensible absurdity of endorsing DeLoria's terminally flawed proposition.

Given the consistency demonstrated throughout your posting history on these boards, it would be reasonable to anticipate your future interactions here will differ little from their predecessors; not only have you established neither authority nor credibility for your propositions, your manner of presentation thereof has been bufoonish, peurile, and apart from all other fault frequently incivil, biggotted, and otherwise unpleasant and objectionable. Your credentials on these boards are beyond question - few here by their posts have more qualified themselves as more able peddlars of snake oil, prejudice, ignorance, and superstition than have you by your posts.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 07:29 pm
http://www.worth1000.com/entries/97500/97815EjLI_w.jpg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 07:59 pm
Ice ages??

Sure, DeLoria would have been wrong to assume that the Earth went through hotter and colder regions of space. Nonetheless there has been at least one mini ice age within well recorded history in the 1600s and no standard theory accounts for it.

In real life, as I have heard and read it, stars are not thermonuclear engines as has been taught for some decades, but basically plasma physics phenomena which behave like arc welders more than anything else you could use as an analogy and, as a star moves through regions of space with greater or lesser electrical potential difference from itself, it gets hotter or colder.

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/galaxies.htm

Basically, DeLoria was closer to the truth than the "glacial processes" which Whittaker refers to. If nothing else, what sort of 'glacial processes' brought about the mini ice age of the 1600s??

For that matter, what sort of 'glacial processes' could cause the muck deposits or the elephant-bone islands above Siberia? The basic answer is none. DeLoria was basically correct in denouncing all such theories.

There are a couple of things the average reader should understand about Vine DeLoria.

He was as far from a Christian fundamentalist as it ever gets; he viewed ALL western religions as FUBAR.

He was a neo-Velikovskian catastrophist, which is something for which no ulterior motive or profit motive is known to exist. The only possible motive for that is that his own studies led him in that direction.

He was a major league scholar, whose books on Indian affairs are standard university texts. Somebody like Whittaker or our dynamic duo of blowhards here are basically out of their league in thinking they have debunked Vine DeLoria.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 09:02 pm
gunga, either you may demonstrate, objectively, empirically, and authoritatively that Whittaker's criticisms and refutations of DeLoria's claims and methodology be in error, that Whittaker has wrongfully accused DeLoria of fabrication, mischaracterization, and prevarication in the interest of agenda, that DeLoria proceeds from academically sound, scientifically valid premise, or you may persist in the absolutely indefensible absurdity of endorsing DeLoria's terminally flawed proposition.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 09:25 pm
Quote:
There are a couple of things the average reader should understand about Vine DeLoria.

He was as far from a Christian fundamentalist as it ever gets; he viewed ALL western religions as FUBAR.


Quite true and he was an Animist/Spiritualist/Metaphysician. Hardly a basis for empirical analysis.
0 Replies
 
aperson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2006 10:18 pm
Hello everybody. Happy new year.

My what a lovely little discusions we are having here.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 08:17 am
One thing DeLoria was unarguably an expert on was Indian oral traditions,, and it is a fact that Indian oral traditions mention Indian ancestors dealing with dinosaurs on a regular basis, which is one data point and the original question.

There are other data points. For instance, scientists have recently noticed that when they break dinosaur bones open, they occasionally find soft tissue, some of which looks like raw meat:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050324/050324_trex_softtissue_hlg10a.hlarge.jpg

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/307/5717/1952

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp

etc.

It will be obvious enough to most rational people that soft tissue is not going to survive inside bones for millions of years.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2007 08:21 am
aperson wrote:
Hello everybody. Happy new year.

My what a lovely little discusions we are having here.



It is not possible at the present time to have any sort of a rational or civil discussion with committed evolutionists, what you're seeing here is about as good as it gets. That is due to the nature of evolutionism, i.e. that it is not about science at all but rather about lifestyles. Nobody defends any sort of a science theory the way evolution is defended, i.e. at all costs, to the last man, the evidence be damned, and take no prisoners. Only religions and lifestyles are defended like that.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.13 seconds on 11/23/2024 at 11:41:30