65
   

Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 08:39 am
@RoyMcCain,
RoyMcCain wrote:
If you placed old the parts of a computer into a bag and shook that bag for billions of years, would you have a working computer by the end?

No, because the process you describe lacks a key feature that evolution depends on: heredity.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 08:56 am
@RoyMcCain,
RoyMcCain wrote:
No one has been able to 'prove' (show it could work) evolution to me.

It's a simple three-step argument.

Step 1: You already know that selective breeding works. Through it, humans have bred Dobermans, German Shepherds, and Chihuahuas from the same wolves that lived only a few thousand years ago. Likewise, humans have bred cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts from common ancestors that lived only thousands of years ago. You know we've been doing this to other species for millenia, and you know the effect we have had on them. No further proof is necessary beyond looking.

Step 2: Replace artificial selective breeding by humans with natural selective breeding by the specie's environment and the scarcities in it.

Step 3: Multiply the amount of change you see in selective breeding by the vast amount of time that natural selection has had---thousands of millions of years, compared to thousands of years for selective breeding---and you can understand the amount of variety you see in nature.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 08:58 am
This is serious faith. It is also banal. Those who agree with it define themselves as banal as well as all their relations and friends and forbears and all the activities they engage in or have engaged in in the past. A complete system of undifferentiated organic banality with no point to it.

How such an entity could create a culture is left unexplained.

Anyone might be led to think, following such an infantile explanation, one contrary to the historical record, that the inhibitions of pre-marital sex, adultery, divorce, abortion and homosexuality serve no useful purpose simply because Gods are denied. What utter self-serving silliness that requires.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 10:01 am
Quote:
Consequently, the distinctive philosophy of the 19th Century is only Ethics and social critique in the productive sense — nothing more. And consequently, again, its most important representatives (apart from actual practitioners) arc the dramatists. They are the real philosophers of Faustian activism, and compared with them not one of the lecture-room philosophers and systematics counts at all. All that these unimportant pedants have done for us is, so to write and rewrite the history of philosophy (and what history! — collections of dates and "results") that no one to-day knows what the history of philosophy is or what it might be.

Thanks to this, the deep organic unity in the thought of this epoch has never
yet been perceived. The essence of it, from the philosophical point of view, can be precised by asking the question: In how far is Shaw the pupil and fulfiller of Nietzsche? The question is put in no ironic spirit. Shaw is the one thinker of eminence who has consistently advanced in the same direction as that of the true Nietzsche — namely, productive criticism of the Western morale — while following out as poet the last implications of Ibsen and devoting the balance of the artistic creativeness that is in him to practical discussions.

Save in so far as the belated Romanticist in him has determined the style,
sound and attitude of his philosophy, Nietzsche is in every respect a disciple of the materialistic decades. That which drew him with such passion to Schopenhauer was (not that he himself or anyone else was conscious of it) that element of Schopenhauer's doctrine by which he destroyed the great metaphysic and (without meaning to do so) parodied his master Kant; that is to say, the modification of all deep ideas of the Baroque age into tangible and mechanistic notions. Kant speaks in inadequate words, which hide a mighty and scarcely apprehensible intuition, an intuition of the world as appearance or phenomenon. In Schopenhauer this becomes the world as brain-phenomenon (Gehirnphanomen). The change-over from tragic philosophy to philosophical plebeianism is complete. It will be enough to cite one passage. In "The World as Will and Idea" Schopenhauer says: "The will, as thing-in-itself, constitutes the inner, true and indestructible essence of the man; in itself, however, it is without consciousness. For the consciousness is conditioned by the intellect and this is a mere accident of our being, since it is a function of the brain, and that again (with its dependent nerves and spinal cord) is a mere fruit, a product, nay, even a parasite of the rest of the organism, inasmuch as it does not intervene directly in the latter's activities but only serves a purpose of self-preservation by regulating its relations with the outer world." Here we have exactly the fundamental position of the flattest materialism. It was not for nothing that Schopenhauer, like Rousseau before him, studied the English sensualists. From them he learned to misread Kant in the spirit of megalopolitan utilitarian modernity. The intellect as instrument of the will- to-life,^ as weapon in the struggle for existence, the ideas brought to grotesque expression by Shaw in "Man and Superman" — it was because this was his view of the world that Schopenhauer became the fashionable philosopher when Darwin's main work was published in 1859. In contrast to Schelling, Hegel and Fichte, he was a philosopher, and the only philosopher, whose metaphysical propositions could be absorbed with ease by intellectual medi- ocrity. The clarity of which he was so proud threatened at every moment to reveal itself as triviality. While retaining enough of formula to produce an atmosphere of profundity and exclusiveness, he presented the civilized view of the world complete and assimilable. His system is anticipated Darwinism, and the speech of Kant and the concepts of the Indians are simply clothing. In his book "Ueber den Willen in der Natur" (1835) we find already the struggle for self-preservation in Nature, the human intellect as master-weapon in that struggle and sexual love as unconscious selection according to biological interest. (1)
It is the view that Darwin (via Malthus) brought to bear with irresistible
success in the field of zoology. The economic origin of Darwinism is shown by the fact that the system deduced from the similarities between men and the higher animals ceases to fit even at the level of the plant- world and becomes positively absurd as soon as it is seriously attempted to apply it with its will tendency (natural selection, mimicry) to primitive organic forms. (2) Proof, to the Darwinian, means the ordering and pictorial presentation of a selection of facts so that they conform to his historico-dynamic basic feeling of "Evolution. " Darwinism — that is to say, that totality of very varied and discrepant ideas, in which the common factor is merely the application of the causality principle to living things, which therefore is a method and not a result, was known in all details to the i8th Century. Rousseau was championing the ape-man theory as early as 1754. What Darwin originated is only the "Manchester School" system, and it is this latent -political element in it that accounts for its popularity.

Note 1. Even the modern idea that unconscious and impulsive acts of life are completely efficient, while intellect can only bungle, is to be found in Schopenhauer (Vol. II, cap. 30).

Note 2. In the chapter "Zur Metaphysik der Geschlcchtsliebe " (11, 44) the idea of natural selection for the preservation of the genus is anticipated in full.


Oswald Spengler. Volume 1. Soul Image and Life Feeling. Part II Buddhism, Stoicism, Socialism.

You're dealing with special pleading amateurs Roy and sensualism is their game. Don't be fooled.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 10:21 am
@Thomas,
Well, you can understand it if you're willing to look, to see and to acknowledge the process honestly. However, if you're already hidebound by doctrine . . .
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 10:31 am
@RoyMcCain,
Of course no one can show you that evolution works. You have always, and likely will continue, to refuse to judge evolution on it's own merits. You have a set of beliefs which evolution appears, in your eyes, to conflict, therefore it must be wrong. Your IQ means absolutely nothing if you refuse to use it. You refuse to credit scientific processes simply because they don't lead to the results you need to support your belief.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 10:35 am
@wayne,
I believe that the over-riding control over christians is fear; if they accept evolution, they must admit that "creation" is a myth.
wayne
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 10:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes I agree with that insight completely. Evolution theory is not in the business of disproving god, it does, however, raise serious questions about religious monopoly on god.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 11:00 am
@wayne,
What is so fascinating about evolution and creationism is that many christians can live believing in both without having conflicts in their own minds.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 11:07 am
@cicerone imposter,
Indeed, those who are willing to admit they don't have god in a box, seem to do just fine. The problem seems to arise with those that believe they are privy to the workings of an infinite intelligence. Arrogant to say the least.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 02:37 pm
@wayne,
It takes a degree of arrogance to get our show on the road. It is necessary to have intelligence to avoid the mistakes of others. It's a business principle. One might need to invent a way of running cars on tap water to ignore it.

The mistakes of others were made, whatever they were, by evolved human organisms. How were they not to be repeated when the organisms had the same characteristics as the ones who failed. And even with a new system that would be a very difficult obstacle--human nature.

The infinite intelligence is brought in to give the intelligences running the show chutzpah. And here we are, living on the fat of the land in a cornucopia of goodies. And if we do make scientific materialism and evolution our bases there is no guarantee others will. So we need to know whether we would continue to dominate the world with socialistic materialism against those with gods with their own chutzpah. Even if we laugh at what that is.

So it isn't evolution as such that is the problem. It is the political implications of adopting it that is the problem. Evolution is harmless without its political implications. Cloning and other modern biological discoveries have possibly great benefits but still they are feared because of the implications. One might say feared instinctively as the "uncanny" always is.

So evolutionists are having a free ride. Like at the fairground when Daddy is paying. They speak of nothing but negative implications of Christianity, siiting comfortably amidst the positive ones, being mostly of the turnip picking class, (see Hogarth), and they have the implications of evolution on Ignore. Which suggests that they have no positive implications to set their stall out with.

And I could name a few possibilities. The real estate on which the hotbeds of superstitious and dangerous nonsense are squatting could be redeveloped. Some are on Prime sites. Many indeed. And there's all that dressed stone. The Ladies Defence League would negotiate annually the price for producing a new human being. Huxley copped out on that one for obvious reasons. Adjustments to the ductless glands to make doing double shifts in the foundry euphoric and a bowl of rice the epitome of gourmet delight. Well--efficiency is the name of the game.

You have to laugh though. People living in the very least dangerous circumstances the world has ever known and without them having had to break sweat, as is obvious from the literary abilities they display, despite their "cheap and cheerful" degrees and majors, are fond of calling our cultural driver "dangerous". It's enough to cause SOTCTLAJSOAWST. (Sliding off the chair, tittering, like a jelly sliding off a wonky-legged shaking table.) They are wearing safety harness.

Nobody gives a damn about evolution, except a few white coats, if there are no implications. It is impossible to imagine evolution and scientific materialism replacing Christianity and everything staying just as it is now. Which I think is what evolutionists must imagine. That's dafter than an infinite intelligence. The other end of the intelligence spectrum actually.

It's all to do with subjectivism in puberty and late adolesence. And they daren't admit it. So they use science. And they don't know any science worth a blow. They just use word formulations they have read somewhere and the somewhere was homed in on for no other reason. It's meant to baffle you see. Provide a tone. Like the refined integrity of the voiceovers on the science programmes. Similar to those on ads for financial institutions. There's a hint of plaintive begging at the bottom of it. Which I can understand. It must be a bit of a pisser to have studied bloody science up to 21 and beyond as the best years of life pass by and then find the scientific profession depicted in movies as being off its collective head.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 02:42 pm
@spendius,
spendi, What did you nine paragraphs actually say? I quit reading after the first two sentences, because they didn't make sense in any way.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 02:47 pm
Well, there is no good proof for your existence. I guess that makes you and evolution equal.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 03:01 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It must be a bit of a pisser to have studied bloody science up to 21 and beyond as the best years of life pass by and then find the scientific profession depicted in movies as being off its collective head
I have a feeling that this is the foreword to spendi's autobiography.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 03:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I have read many sentences in my time which didn't make any sense. So I read them again. And again if necessary. I have cruddled many a Proust paragraph for hours.

But one has to want to make sense of such things in the first place. Which you don't in my case. So you shift the onus onto me by asserting there is no sense to be made of my sentences. And there was to me. And maybe there was to others. A polite Ignore is what you're on because you possibly pride yourself with not using the formal Ignore function. That way you keep your double standard intact with dignity. Sort of. If nobody's paying much attention.

As you can see I had no trouble making sense of your two sentences.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 03:30 pm
@farmerman,
Well fm--I would guess the lecture on Avogadro's number took place on the same day as the Ebor Handicap at York.

I really do know about "cheap and cheerful" degrees. But they never went to my head in case I found myself in the company of others who knew about them as well and who would have lost their respect for me if they had had that effect. Which is tempting I must admit. But Jesus said beware temptations which is one of the reasons why the business class lynched Him.

One day I'll tell you about the cheapest and most cheerful degree I know of. And it's not £5o to the University of Cork. It involved a five-sided pencil. What you would call pentagonal.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 03:40 pm
@spendius,
When I took a Philosophy course in college, I needed to re-read sentences and paragraphs before they started to sink in the grey matter. Since I know you are not a philosopher, I take your postings at face value, but often times, your prose doesn't even address the subject under discussion, and you go into tangents without rhyme or reason. You're not the only poster I do this to; I will not make more than a cursory attempt to understand what people post on a2k. If the first sentence or two diverges too greatly, I just scroll over that post. I seem to be doing that more often of late.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 05:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Obviously you took a "cheap and cheerful" philosophy course. I hope the certificate had nice serrated edges and signatures that nobody can decipher. With your name on the dotted line. Is it framed on one of your walls?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 08:05 pm
@spendius,
spendi, FYI, your response only tells everybody that you are rarely on topic; basically a bore.
laughoutlood
 
  0  
Reply Mon 11 Apr, 2011 08:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
On the contrary cicerone imposter, I find spendius' posts germane and scintillatingly enjoyable, despite having to read them first in order to form an opinion, unlike some.

Which craft could use a 5 sided pencil so well.
 

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