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Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Nov, 2007 04:03 am
real life wrote:
Then how 'bout addressing what I've asked in regard to this:

Why was B 'selected for' if it did not have a 'survival advantage' over A?


Either you're a dense fool or you're deliberately ignoring huge swathes of my post. I refer you to the latter half of Post #2929816, where I state I never said B didn't have a survial advantage over A.

Quote:
You want to have it both ways. B evolves from A, but then B loses out to A.


Once again, either your reading skills are abysmal or you're deliberately ignoring sections of my post, in order to argue against a strawman. I refer you to post #2925148 where I stated quite explicitly not that B loses out to A, but it loses out to the combined forces of A and C. A alone would not be able to out-compete B.

Before C came along, B would have competed with A for food, but if the competition from A got too hot, it could always eat from another source where it had no competition from A. Hence that is how it survived.

Along comes C. Now it has competition from C. A is eating one of its food sources and C is eating the other. Eventually, B will lose out, because it has more selection pressures against it as a result of C appearing.

In effect, it loses out to C, but A contributes to the exctinction of B, hence B loses out to both.

Quote:
Evolution allows this because there really isn't any scenario that can't be concocted that will contradict evolution.

If the critter survived.......well it's evolution. He was better adapted.

If the critter didn't survive.......well it's evolution. He wasn't better adapted.

It's unfalsifiable.


Wrong. Evolution is falsifiable. It states quite clearly that genetic mutations arise, which are selected for by environmental pressures and that through continued selection, the trait is maintained in a population.

All you have to do to falsify evolution is to introduce a genetic mutation into an organism and then select for it. Take E. coli or baker's yeast or fission yeast and introduce an antibiotic resistance gene into it. Then select for the gene by applying that antibiotic to the cells. Do a control with no mutation.

If evolution is false, there should be no difference between the two. Thing is, there is a difference between the two. The ones with the mutation survive. I know. I've done the experiment in a lab and repeated it, several times (more times than I'd have wanted to, to tell you the truth).

That's why Creationists consistently fail, RL. Evolution's major concept has been proven to be true. Mutations have been observed in populations. Selection pressures have been observed to act on mutations and select for them.

Evolution is the most solid and uncontroversial science in existence. It is a concrete pillar, the foundation of biological sciences... I would even go as far as to say it is Biology's Theory of Everything. It explains cancer cells. It explains antibiotic resistance in bacteria. It helps us identify new strains of viruses. It should help us identify which species are most likely to survive and which ones require conservation efforts.

It is supported by several different scientific disciplines, so much so, that to properly defend Evolution from Creationists, one has to know geology, paleontology, archaeology, zoology, biochemistry, molecular biology, cancer biology, virology, astrophysics, physics, chemistry and probably a whole host of other sciences that may have slipped my mind.

You, RL, are banging your head against the proverbial brick wall, except its less of a brick wall and more of a reinforced concrete pillar.
0 Replies
 
fungotheclown
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Nov, 2007 08:56 am
Good points all, Wolf
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2007 12:36 pm
Quote:
Encyclopedia Of Life (EOL) Draft Species Pages Now Available
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Nov, 2007 01:46 pm
You can access some of the initial pages through the smithsonians web site. I saw a page that was done on the "yeti" crab, a hairy little guy that lives around mid ocean volcanic vents.

Its supposed to take another 5 years or so to complet. Its gonna have the evolutionary significance by providing sequencing data where available.

Imagine what the Creationists will have to say about how animals show much , or little, genetic variability and how that helps classify entire groupos of higher taxa. Guess the wind will be leaking out of their sails trying to come up with scholarly arguments.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 08:30 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Evolution is falsifiable. It states quite clearly that genetic mutations arise, which are selected for by environmental pressures and that through continued selection, the trait is maintained in a population.


Does this 'always' happen, or 'sometimes'?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 08:50 am
real life wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Evolution is falsifiable. It states quite clearly that genetic mutations arise, which are selected for by environmental pressures and that through continued selection, the trait is maintained in a population.


Does this 'always' happen, or 'sometimes'?


I don't see why you need to ask this question, RL.

The survival of a genetic mutation is quite clearly dependent on environmental pressures and whether or not they change, and whether or not they affect other traits an organism has. Genetic mutations are not always selected for if the environment doesn't put any pressure on it.

How exactly does this prove Evolution wrong, RL?

The Theory of Evolution quite clearly talks about new genetic mutations that are selected for by environmental pressures. It discusses quite specific situations as to when it works and how it works.

To disprove Evolution, RL, you have to prove that it doesn't work if the criteria it specifies are present.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 03:07 pm
There's no point arguing with RL using science - his beliefs aren't based on scientific evidence.

As I've said before, I could give an example of what sort of evidence would change my mind about evolution - RL can't come up with any that would change his mind about God.

Now stand back for more filibustering.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 03:39 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
real life wrote:
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Evolution is falsifiable. It states quite clearly that genetic mutations arise, which are selected for by environmental pressures and that through continued selection, the trait is maintained in a population.


Does this 'always' happen, or 'sometimes'?


I don't see why you need to ask this question, RL.

The survival of a genetic mutation is quite clearly dependent on environmental pressures and whether or not they change, and whether or not they affect other traits an organism has. Genetic mutations are not always selected for if the environment doesn't put any pressure on it.

How exactly does this prove Evolution wrong, RL?

The Theory of Evolution quite clearly talks about new genetic mutations that are selected for by environmental pressures. It discusses quite specific situations as to when it works and how it works.

To disprove Evolution, RL, you have to prove that it doesn't work if the criteria it specifies are present.


And that's why it's tautologous.

If the critter didn't survive.......well the criteria were obviously not present.

If the critter did survive........well, see evolution explains that too.

Evolution works in mysterious ways. No matter the situation, evolution is defined broadly enough and loosely enough to cover it.

Early evolutionists learned that you can't draw too tight a circle.

It used to be that similar traits were said to indicate a common ancestry.

But then it became apparent that there were too many critters with similar traits in cases where even evolutionists couldn't say they evolved.........

........so then we have things like 'convergent evolution' http://www.txtwriter.com/backgrounders/Evolution/EVpage14.html

.............and claims like the eye having evolved independently on 40 separate occasions.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Nov, 2007 08:41 pm
real life wrote:

.............and claims like the eye having evolved independently on 40 separate occasions.


Liar.

Most modern texts 'suggest' around 9 and by 'eye' they mean organ sensitive to light that sends signals to brain based on that sensitivity.

But even if it was 500 - isn't that proof of evolution, that something was so useful in perpetuating a mutation in offspring that it took hold in a number of different evolutionary paths?

Carry on obfuscating - this is just graffiti.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 07:44 am
real life wrote:
And that's why it's tautologous.

If the critter didn't survive.......well the criteria were obviously not present.

If the critter did survive........well, see evolution explains that too.


If something is a tautology, it is always true regardless of which valuation is used for the propositional values.

Evolution does not fit this definition, because it quite clearly defined what would happen if the criteria was present and therefore what would happen if the criteria was not present. Evolution does not occur if the criteria are not met.

Quote:
It used to be that similar traits were said to indicate a common ancestry.

But then it became apparent that there were too many critters with similar traits in cases where even evolutionists couldn't say they evolved.........

........so then we have things like 'convergent evolution' http://www.txtwriter.com/backgrounders/Evolution/EVpage14.html

.............and claims like the eye having evolved independently on 40 separate occasions.


Yeah, that's called improving the theory.

Newton's theories on gravity used to be the best too, but they weren't. They were improved and now physicists use Einstein's theories. Does that mean gravity is a lie too?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 08:44 am
hingehead wrote:
- this is just graffiti.


This is the most cogent, succinct and elegant description of the "contributions" of the member "real life" to such discussions.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:01 am
hingehead wrote:
real life wrote:

.............and claims like the eye having evolved independently on 40 separate occasions.


Liar.



from http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1995-06-16peepers.shtml

Richard Dawkins wrote:
......serviceable image-forming eyes have evolved between 40 and 60 times, independently from scratch, in many different invertebrate groups. Among these 40-plus independent evolutions, at least nine distinct design principles have been discovered.........


hinge,

Do you still want to deny that this claim has been made?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:15 am
well real life.. I see you ignored the thrust of the article you quoted in exchange for pulling out one quote to attack a single quote by someone else.

The article actually supports hingehead more than it does you. It provided evidence that the eye could have easily evolved 1500 times in just one lineage while you claim 60 for the entire scope of life is too many.

Quote:
But even with these conservative assumptions, the time taken to evolve a fish eye from fiat skin was minuscule: fewer than 400,000 generations. For the kinds of small animals we are talking about, we can assume one generation per year, so it seems that it would take less than half a million years to evolve a good camera eye.

If you would care to point out the errors in the science of that article, we can wait a little bit. If you decide to ignore the article, we understand because that is what you always do.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:30 am
parados wrote:

pulling out one quote to attack a single quote by someone else.


So, refuting his charge of 'liar' is actually 'attacking' his quote, eh? Rolling Eyes

parados wrote:

The article actually supports hingehead more than it does you.


Nice spin, doc. :wink:

His lower number is blown out of the water by the higher number I cited and supported with an article from a well known evolutionist. But you think the article 'supports' him . Laughing
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:49 am
It certainly refutes your contention.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:57 am
whats the point rl, are you saying that , despite the evidence of light sensitivity and development of an eyespot into a true eye (though massively demonstrated by fossil evidence, genetics, and body plan) that somehow some miraculous intervention was needed?
Seems to me that there wasnt any way to STOP the evolution of an eye, but you know me, Im willing to learn any new tricks (if they work)

So far youre battin 0.000
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 01:29 pm
farmerman wrote:
whats the point rl, are you saying that , despite the evidence of light sensitivity and development of an eyespot into a true eye (though massively demonstrated by fossil evidence, genetics, and body plan) that somehow some miraculous intervention was needed?
Seems to me that there wasnt any way to STOP the evolution of an eye, but you know me, Im willing to learn any new tricks (if they work)

So far youre battin 0.000


Every skin cell in your body is 'light sensitive'.

Actually , every cell in your body would be affected by exposure to all frequencies of the EM in some way.

It doesn't mean that all of your skin cells have the potential to eventually evolve into an eye.

The mere fact that some critters have a 'more advanced' eye than others (as evidenced by the fossil record) is little reason to suppose that one evolved from the other.

In fact many evolutionists have given up trying to prove this, and instead have gone to the hypothesis of multiple independent scenarios of eye evolution.

So , citing the fossil record for some continuous chain of evidence is really smoke and mirrors in this instance if you think that the eye evolved dozens of times separately anyhow.

That's the vantage point where claims such as that of Dawkins come from.

I would like to know if hingehead considers himself to be more informed on the topic of evolution than Dawkins. (I already know your opinion of him). Cool
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 06:40 am
rl
Quote:
So , citing the fossil record for some continuous chain of evidence is really smoke and mirrors in this instance if you think that the eye evolved dozens of times separately anyhow.



The fossil record is like the pages of a number of history books. The fossil record, provides a chain of EVIDENCE that clearly shows that various species have evolved eyespots and then eyes. If you wish to argue that it doesnt work that way, or that evidence isnt shown. Id be happy to listen to your logic.
Youve claimed that its all a matter of "interpretation", while that true, you seem to boldly misinterpret and ignore key areas of development. (Like the existence of eyespots in annelids of the preCambrian and more complex eyes of same phyla in the early Paleozoic)

If you cant (or wont) follow the trail that evidence clearly suggests, I dont think the problem is with us.
As I asked you on the other thread, and I paraphrase,
"If you preach that we should question everything, why dont you include questioning a bit of the the Bibles version of science?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 06:54 am
How does the rise of the eye in diverse classes of animals deny anything that evolution explains? Specific solutions to lifes problems have been evolved many different ways in many different species, (gills v lungs v spiracles, one lung v two) .This is merely an example of the solutions that different animals have presented to solve the same requirement,-- respiration.

Photo reception is a sensing mechanism that, like "ears" is an adaptive means to detecting an animals environment (even some plants have photo receptive tissues).

The development of these sense organs started very simply in early life, and some means (like sound) , we have strong evidence from specific skeletal structures and exoskeletal structures that hearing evolved in separate pathways also.
However , the sum of the body mechanisms are all solutions to sensing mechanisms which clearly show that (at least from a careful view of the fossil record) evolution was "messing around" with various solutions and theres never only one solution to a problem.
This evidence based conclusion gets the Creationists all verhootzed because the Bible clearly states and implies the carfeul unifromity of forms as representative of the work of a sentient creator.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2007 08:31 am
farmerman wrote:
If you preach that we should question everything, why dont you include questioning a bit of the the Bibles version of science?.


Why would I preach to the choir here?


farmerman wrote:
the Bible clearly states and implies the carfeul unifromity of forms as representative of the work of a sentient creator.


Where?

farmerman wrote:
How does the rise of the eye in diverse classes of animals deny anything that evolution explains?.


Why would the existence of similar eyes in diverse classes imply that one evolved from the other?


farmerman wrote:
evolution was "messing around" with various solutions and theres never only one solution to a problem.


I thought evolution was directionless?

farmerman wrote:
Youve claimed that its all a matter of "interpretation", while that true, you seem to boldly misinterpret and ignore key areas of development. (Like the existence of eyespots in annelids of the preCambrian and more complex eyes of same phyla in the early Paleozoic)


Isn't this a rather circular argument? Using taxonomy to prove evolution?

E -- 'well, these have obviously evolved from one another , because they are in the same phylum'

Q -- 'why are they in the same phylum?'

E -- 'because they have evolved from one another'
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