Don't tell me there's no proof for evolution

parados wrote:

A circular reaction gets you life according to Shapiro. You didn't read him did you? You keep claiming things he didn't say. You keep denying things he DID say.

I didn't deny he said it.

I said I disagreed with his proposed solution.

Hello?

I brought Shapiro into the discussion because I thought his perspective as an award winning chemist is relevant. He thinks that a replicator arising by natural processes is an extremely unlikely possibility.

He doesn't mention the Faint Sun as one of his factors. I consider it a relevant factor however. It reduces the locations where significant chemical activity needed to pull off a Miller-Urey type miracle (and beyond) could occur.

parados wrote:

real life wrote:

Your other solution , a 'greenhouse effect' is one that was taken into account by Dr Bada, and was shown to slightly mitigate but not reverse the cold climate (the oceans would 'ONLY' be frozen on the top 300 meters).

LOL.. oh? Care to show me the abstract for the Bada paper that includes an atmosphere with lots of CO2 and frozen oceans?

The papers I see are he assumes the levels of CO2 are NOT elevated when the oceans are frozen. He then calculates that a large meteor would melt all the oceans releasing enough CO2 and other green house gases to keep the oceans from refreezing. Oops. the meteor just created the atmosphere that Miller-Utey used and the temperatures as well.

Once again you are using someone's argument and warping it for your own purpose without taking their ENTIRE argument into account.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=43134

I'll take your word for the content of the paper, without critiquing it.

So after all of this denial , you finally found out that Bada DID postulate frozen oceans. Good.

(Why the need for them to thaw if they were not frozen, eh?)

Then you (and he) pin your hopes for unfreezing them on meteors.

That's fine by me.

Keep stacking up those far fetched scenarios, parados.

'We didn't want to think about the oceans being frozen---

---- but if we time the meteors just right,

----- then they could cause the oceans that we didn't want frozen to thaw,

------then perhaps LOTS of lightning strikes would happen in the SAME PLACE to the SAME HANDFUL of chemicals up in the atmosphere,

-----and they would become amino acids,

------and then these would fall to the ground in the SAME PLACE

------so that they could combine into a self replicating molecule.

Voila! The first DNA!'

hingehead wrote:

Generally scientists are of the opinion that a possible proof against the theory of evolution would be the existence of a fossilized house cat in pre-cambrian sandstone (or something to that effect).

What would a religious person accept as proof that their god(s) did not exist?

hingehead (and ros :wink: ):

Complete loss of faith by all humans.

hingehead wrote:

What would a religious person accept as proof that their god(s) did not exist?

Kinda tough to prove a negative.

real life wrote:

I brought Shapiro into the discussion because I thought his perspective as an award winning chemist is relevant. He thinks that a replicator arising by natural processes is an extremely unlikely possibility.

No he doesn't.

He's just proposing a precursor to replication. He never said anything about replication not arising naturally.

real life wrote:

He doesn't mention the Faint Sun as one of his factors. I consider it a relevant factor however. It reduces the locations where significant chemical activity needed to pull off a Miller-Urey type miracle (and beyond) could occur.

Says you. The science whiz.

I think I'ld sooner believe that if my dog barked it at me.

NASA scientists are on the trail of Iapetus' mysterious dark side, which seems to be home to a bizarre "runaway" process that is transporting vaporized water ice from the dark areas to the white areas of the Saturnian moon.

This "thermal segregation" model may explain many details of the moon's strange and dramatically two-toned appearance, which have been revealed exquisitely in images collected during a recent close flyby of Iapetus by NASA's Cassini spacecraft.

Infrared observations from the flyby confirm that the dark material is warm enough (approximately -230 degrees Fahrenheit or 127 Kelvin) for very slow release of water vapor from water ice, and this process is probably a major factor in determining the distinct brightness boundaries.

real life wrote:

parados wrote:

real life wrote:

Your other solution , a 'greenhouse effect' is one that was taken into account by Dr Bada, and was shown to slightly mitigate but not reverse the cold climate (the oceans would 'ONLY' be frozen on the top 300 meters).

LOL.. oh? Care to show me the abstract for the Bada paper that includes an atmosphere with lots of CO2 and frozen oceans?

The papers I see are he assumes the levels of CO2 are NOT elevated when the oceans are frozen. He then calculates that a large meteor would melt all the oceans releasing enough CO2 and other green house gases to keep the oceans from refreezing. Oops. the meteor just created the atmosphere that Miller-Utey used and the temperatures as well.

Once again you are using someone's argument and warping it for your own purpose without taking their ENTIRE argument into account.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=43134

I'll take your word for the content of the paper, without critiquing it.

And without correcting your statements about what Bada said it looks like. I would think a "person of God" would have a little bit more integrity when it comes to being wrong and having the humility to admit that fact to yourself and others.

real life wrote:

So after all of this denial , you finally found out that Bada DID postulate frozen oceans. Good.

Wow. that is some **** you are pulling out of your ass to throw around. Please point to where I ever denied Bada postulating the oceans were frozen. You will not be able so show me saying that anywhere. (I see you decided to attack me instead of dealing with the inconsistencies in your argument. Miller-Utey's atmosphere couuld not have existed for when Bada postulates the oceans were frozen. Bada postulates that atmosphere did exist AFTER the oceans were thawed.)

real life wrote:

(Why the need for them to thaw if they were not frozen, eh?)

More **** based on the first **** you pulled out.

real life wrote:

Then you (and he) pin your hopes for unfreezing them on meteors.

That's fine by me.

I didn't postulate that meteors unfroze the oceans. Bada did in the same article he postulated the oceans were frozen to a depth of 300 meters.

real life wrote:

Keep stacking up those far fetched scenarios, parados.

You are the one that said we needed to accept Bada's hypothesis and kept claiming the oceans were frozen when Miller-Utey's atmosphere existed. Who's stacking up far fetched scenarios?

real life wrote:

'We didn't want to think about the oceans being frozen---

---- but if we time the meteors just right,

----- then they could cause the oceans that we didn't want frozen to thaw,

------then perhaps LOTS of lightning strikes would happen in the SAME PLACE to the SAME HANDFUL of chemicals up in the atmosphere,

-----and they would become amino acids,

------and then these would fall to the ground in the SAME PLACE

------so that they could combine into a self replicating molecule.

Voila! The first DNA!'













And you do know what would happen to a DNA molecule in the open environment , don't you?

Better figure out a way for those amino acids that fell from the sky to insert themselves into a protective, semi-permeable membrane of some sort.

Keep throwing the **** real life. Eventually even you will start to smell the stink in your arguments.

Not to bring science into the discussion, but for anyone insisting on a frozen earth model, here is some information from studies of Saturn's moon Iapetus. I clipped the article because too much science at one time seems to be against A2Ker's rules. I DID highlight the pertinent information of whether or not water vapor is present and mobile on extremely cold celestial objects. I now return you to your arguments ad infinitum.

Quote:

NASA scientists are on the trail of Iapetus' mysterious dark side, which seems to be home to a bizarre "runaway" process that is transporting vaporized water ice from the dark areas to the white areas of the Saturnian moon.

This "thermal segregation" model may explain many details of the moon's strange and dramatically two-toned appearance, which have been revealed exquisitely in images collected during a recent close flyby of Iapetus by NASA's Cassini spacecraft.

Infrared observations from the flyby confirm that the dark material is warm enough (approximately -230 degrees Fahrenheit or 127 Kelvin) for very slow release of water vapor from water ice, and this process is probably a major factor in determining the distinct brightness boundaries.

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:

He doesn't mention the Faint Sun as one of his factors. I consider it a relevant factor however. It reduces the locations where significant chemical activity needed to pull off a Miller-Urey type miracle (and beyond) could occur.

Says you. The science whiz.

I think I'ld sooner believe that if my dog barked it at me.

Well, I'd say if the oceans are all frozen (either completely or 'just' the first 300 meters) , then there would be a lot less water vapor available in the atmosphere.

Do you disagree with that?

If lightning is your energy source, explain how amino acids survive the 60,000 degree temperature that you told us accompanied it.

If you now agree with Bada that the oceans were frozen and were thawed by the 300 meter thick ice being busted up by meteorites, explain where the meteorites are now. Did these meteorites just go away?

rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:

He doesn't mention the Faint Sun as one of his factors. I consider it a relevant factor however. It reduces the locations where significant chemical activity needed to pull off a Miller-Urey type miracle (and beyond) could occur.

Says you. The science whiz.

I think I'ld sooner believe that if my dog barked it at me.

Well, I'd say if the oceans are all frozen (either completely or 'just' the first 300 meters) , then there would be a lot less water vapor available in the atmosphere.

Do you disagree with that?

real life wrote:

hingehead wrote:

What would a religious person accept as proof that their god(s) did not exist?

Kinda tough to prove a negative.

What do you propose?

That does't even make sense, tons of things have been proved not to exist, in fact aren't the anti-evolutionist trying to prove it doesn't exist?

I just offered you the sort of evidence that would convince me that my concept of evolution was massively flawed. Now I'm asking you to offer an example of the sort of evidence that would convince you god doesn't exist. That's a fairly simple request, I would have thought.

Really classy reply there parados. No substance, just ad homs and denials.

Can't you support the idea of life coming from non-life with anything other than that?

If you think amino acids were generated in an early atmosphere, explain how they managed to land in the same place and eventually combine into an xNA molecule of some sort.

Explain how this xNA molecule didn't degrade and disintegrate from the chemical action of the environment in which it was located.

Explain how many lightning strikes on the same batch of chemicals (this is classic Miller-Urey stuff) you think it would take to generate even 10% of the amino acids you will need.

If lightning is your energy source, explain how amino acids survive the 60,000 degree temperature that you told us accompanied it.

If you now agree with Bada that the oceans were frozen and were thawed by the 300 meter thick ice being busted up by meteorites, explain where the meteorites are now. Did these meteorites just go away?

Explain where the rest of the amino acids came from that you'll need. (Even under Miller-Urey's rigged conditions, they fell woefully short of even the basic building blocks needed. So you're gonna need some more miracles.)

Did the rest of the amino acids ride in on the meteors that busted the ice? If so, how did they 'hook up' with the amino acids generated by the lightning? Was there an amino acid dating service available?

C'mon parados.

So after all of this denial , you finally found out that Bada DID postulate frozen oceans. Good.

right, metorites from how many thousands of years ago, in the ocean, should be EASY to identify as such now, right? i mean we don't have any ROCKS on earth, so where did they go, eh? where are these so-called "rocks" we supposedly have on earth?