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Texas court tells Bush to butt out.

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 01:06 pm
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm not sure what your personal morals have to do with the place you live. I support individual freedoms and the right for people to democratically make their opinions known. So even if I don't agree with everything that people do, I support their right to self-determine.

I lived in Austin for the last 9 years or so...

Cycloptichorn


You are right, personal morals have nothing to do with where one lives, & I apologize for saying it does. I should've said if one wants to live in a place where anything goes, SF is the place for it

You still live in Austin?


Nope, moved to San Fran Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
LoneStarMadam
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 01:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I'm not sure what your personal morals have to do with the place you live. I support individual freedoms and the right for people to democratically make their opinions known. So even if I don't agree with everything that people do, I support their right to self-determine.

I lived in Austin for the last 9 years or so...

Cycloptichorn


You are right, personal morals have nothing to do with where one lives, & I apologize for saying it does. I should've said if one wants to live in a place where anything goes, SF is the place for it

You still live in Austin?


Nope, moved to San Fran Laughing

Cycloptichorn


lol Embarrassed
We did visit SF several times when my husband was stationed at Mather AFB in Sacramento, but that was way back when, in fact Haight Ashbury was in full swing, interesting times. Have only been back once in all these years other than the airport.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 04:18 pm
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
dyslexia wrote:
HOUSTON -- A state appeals court chastised President Bush for intervening in the case of a condemned killer born in Mexico, one of several dozen cases in which Bush ordered new hearings amid international complaints.

The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals yesterday rejected the argument from Jose Ernesto Medellin that he was denied legal help specified in international treaties.

Medellin, 31, who spent most of his life in Texas, was sentenced in 1994 to die for the rapes and killings of two teenage girls.

"We hold that the president has exceeded his constitutional authority by intruding into the independent powers of the judiciary," the court said in a 64-page ruling.

This is hardly what I would call a "liberal" ruling.

Medellin is a rather complicated case, but, in a nutshell, the US government is saying that the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign criminal defendants the right to consular assistance, must be given effect by state courts. Texas, in contrast, argues that the Vienna Convention does not preempt state procedural law.

The Bush administration was initially reluctant to enforce the Vienna Convention at the state level, but some defeats at the hands of the International Court of Justice ultimately convinced the justice department to enforce the treaty. Given the resistance of many conservatives to following the decisions of international tribunals, the Bush administration's position in this case could be described as "liberal," whereas the Texas court's decision could be viewed as "conservative."

For a (badly formatted) copy of the Texas decision, click here.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 04:37 pm
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
LoneStarMadam wrote:
Texas has liberals, but we try to keep them in Houston/Austin/Dallas driving pink volvos.


Try just Austin. Though Dallas did throw out a bunch of Republicans this cycle

Cycloptichorn


Conservatism has nothing to do with being Republican just as liberalism has nothing to do with being a Democrat. Houston & Dallas are much more liberal than most of the state, except for Austin & that is a mini San Francisco.


Cooincidentally, Austin is also by far the best place to live in Texas.

Just as San Francisco is one of the best places to live in America.

Funny how Liberalism and quality of life tend to go hand in hand, innit?

Cycloptichorn


& you have or are living in Austin?
San Francisco is a wonderful place to live if one has no morals, hates the military, & loves to pay taxes so their city employees can have sex change surgery at the expense of the tax payers.


That's a pretty worldy view ya got there LSM.... obviously you must have finally gotten cable in Crawford....


If you want to know where I live, just ask, don't be so shy.
I imagine that Crawford got cable when Cindy Sheehan held her anti-military/American rallys there.


so you owe her a debt of gratitude... what's next... i-pods?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 04:49 pm
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
joefromchicago wrote:
Medellin is a rather complicated case, but, in a nutshell, the US government is saying that the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign criminal defendants the right to consular assistance, must be given effect by state courts. Texas, in contrast, argues that the Vienna Convention does not preempt state procedural law.

[...]

For a (badly formatted) copy of the Texas decision, click here.

Nice to see you back, Joe, and thanks for the pointer to the case. On a superficial glance, this looks like earlier cases in South-Western states where German citizens were left uninformed about their consular rights. They caused quite some outrage in Germany about those contract-breaking American bullies -- rightly so in my opinion. While there are many things wrong with the Bush administration, Bush's intervention in cases like this may not be one of them.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 05:05 pm
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
joefromchicago wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
HOUSTON -- A state appeals court chastised President Bush for intervening in the case of a condemned killer born in Mexico, one of several dozen cases in which Bush ordered new hearings amid international complaints.

The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals yesterday rejected the argument from Jose Ernesto Medellin that he was denied legal help specified in international treaties.

Medellin, 31, who spent most of his life in Texas, was sentenced in 1994 to die for the rapes and killings of two teenage girls.

"We hold that the president has exceeded his constitutional authority by intruding into the independent powers of the judiciary," the court said in a 64-page ruling.

This is hardly what I would call a "liberal" ruling.

Medellin is a rather complicated case, but, in a nutshell, the US government is saying that the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign criminal defendants the right to consular assistance, must be given effect by state courts. Texas, in contrast, argues that the Vienna Convention does not preempt state procedural law.

The Bush administration was initially reluctant to enforce the Vienna Convention at the state level, but some defeats at the hands of the International Court of Justice ultimately convinced the justice department to enforce the treaty. Given the resistance of many conservatives to following the decisions of international tribunals, the Bush administration's position in this case could be described as "liberal," whereas the Texas court's decision could be viewed as "conservative."

For a (badly formatted) copy of the Texas decision, click here.


Yeah...I was thinking that, but not nearly so learnedly and elegantly.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 05:15 pm
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
joefromchicago wrote:
Medellin is a rather complicated case, but, in a nutshell, the US government is saying that the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign criminal defendants the right to consular assistance, must be given effect by state courts. Texas, in contrast, argues that the Vienna Convention does not preempt state procedural law.

Joe, could you explain to me why the US government's view is even controversial? It seems very straightforward to this interested layman. Under the US consitution, the president "shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties". The Vienna Convention is one such treaty. Your constitution also provides that
    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; [b]and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.[/b]" ([i]emphasis added[/i])
Ergo, 'the judges in Texas shall be bound by the Vienna Convention, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of Texas to the Contrary notwithstanding'. Bush, having the power to make treaties, has a good reason to pressure Texas state courts to enforce this particular treaty he made. Looks like a slam dunk for Bush to me. Why isn't it?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 05:20 pm
Some interesting responses and well-inflormed ones as well; However, my intent in starting this thread had nothing to do with liberal or conservative nor the values displayed by either the Bush admin or the Texas court but rather, the simple irony of a Texas court rejecting a Bush action on the basis of lact of constitutionality (I thought it was funny)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 05:34 pm
dyslexia wrote:
(I thought it was funny)

It is funny, but I also find it shocking. Again, I am not a jurist, but this court seems to out-Bush George W. Bush. It seems to respect the US constitution even less than Bush, which is saying something. I am also quite taken aback that at least five people in this thread who usually take civil rights seriously relish this particular episode because Bush got busted. Never mind that he got busted because he did his job for a change, by a court whose decision trampled on the civil rights of foreigners.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 05:47 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Some interesting responses and well-inflormed ones as well; However, my intent in starting this thread had nothing to do with liberal or conservative nor the values displayed by either the Bush admin or the Texas court but rather, the simple irony of a Texas court rejecting a Bush action on the basis of lact of constitutionality (I thought it was funny)


I couldn't agree more... and the entire thread has been pretty damn amusing....let me buy you a shot and a beer....
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2006 01:52 pm
A shot and a bear ? ! ? ! ?


Do you have suicidal tendancies?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 09:02 am
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
Thomas wrote:
Nice to see you back, Joe, and thanks for the pointer to the case.

Glad to be back.

Thomas wrote:
On a superficial glance, this looks like earlier cases in South-Western states where German citizens were left uninformed about their consular rights. They caused quite some outrage in Germany about those contract-breaking American bullies -- rightly so in my opinion. While there are many things wrong with the Bush administration, Bush's intervention in cases like this may not be one of them.

The Bush administration opposed granting defendants their rights under the Vienna Convention until two adverse rulings by the International Court of Justice (ICJ), including the LaGrand case, convinced it to change its policy. So Bush was against it before he was for it.

Thomas wrote:
Joe, could you explain to me why the US government's view is even controversial? It seems very straightforward to this interested layman. Under the US consitution, the president "shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties". The Vienna Convention is one such treaty. Your constitution also provides that
    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; [b]and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.[/b]" ([i]emphasis added[/i])
Ergo, 'the judges in Texas shall be bound by the Vienna Convention, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of Texas to the Contrary notwithstanding'. Bush, having the power to make treaties, has a good reason to pressure Texas state courts to enforce this particular treaty he made. Looks like a slam dunk for Bush to me. Why isn't it?

I was afraid someone might ask that.

The Texas court's reasoning goes something like this: the Vienna Convention is a treaty, so it has the same status as a federal law. But it is not self-executing -- i.e. it doesn't contain any provision that sets forth how the Convention is supposed to be implemented. That is left for the congress, and congress hasn't taken that step. So, in effect, the Vienna Convention merits only "respectful consideration." In particular, the court held that there's no law or precedent that says that the Convention supersedes state procedural law -- in this case, the law that says that a defendant who does not assert certain rights at an initial stage in his criminal proceedings can lose those rights. The court said that the right to consular assistance under the Convention is one of those rights, and that Medellin lost that right when he failed to assert it.

Although Bush issued a memorandum which adhered to the ICJ interpretation of the Vienna Convention, the Texas court ruled that the memorandum did not amount to an executive order, and so it was just an interpretation of the law that merited no special consideration. Or, in other words, the court responded to Bush with an "oh yeah? sez you!"

That, at least, is my understanding of it, based on an admittedly cursory reading of the opinion. It should also be noted that, as a result of the judicial spankings administered by the ICJ, the US has withdrawn from that part of the Vienna Convention that permits appeals to the ICJ (registration req'd).
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 09:46 am
Re: Texas court tells Bush to butt out.
Thomas wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Medellin is a rather complicated case, but, in a nutshell, the US government is saying that the Vienna Convention, which gives foreign criminal defendants the right to consular assistance, must be given effect by state courts. Texas, in contrast, argues that the Vienna Convention does not preempt state procedural law.

Joe, could you explain to me why the US government's view is even controversial? It seems very straightforward to this interested layman. Under the US consitution, the president "shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties". The Vienna Convention is one such treaty. Your constitution also provides that
    "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; [b]and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.[/b]" ([i]emphasis added[/i])
Ergo, 'the judges in Texas shall be bound by the Vienna Convention, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of Texas to the Contrary notwithstanding'. Bush, having the power to make treaties, has a good reason to pressure Texas state courts to enforce this particular treaty he made. Looks like a slam dunk for Bush to me. Why isn't it?


No doubt Bush made the right call. Most likely, the execution will take place on schedule, and they will be made to deal with it after the fact.
0 Replies
 
 

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