We are all SINNERS???

xingu wrote:

Does God sin or is God perfect goodness?
Does God do evil?

He created evil. I guess it's safe to assume He knew what He was doing.

Wait, no. He knew what He was doing... sort of. I mean, He created Free Will but He just didn't know exactly how it would react in any given environment...

But... He had to know because He created that, too, so... wait

How does it go, again???

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Let's see; jesus was created through virgin birth, and adam was created from sand. Eve was created from Adam's rib. There's all kinds of irony in all these creation stories; they only lacked the creativity of so many comic books of today.

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Bartikus wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
I've alwasy sorta felt that way too Nick. Why do I get punished for something someone else did?

Why do we have the opportunity to be saved based on what someone else did?

God sent a model for our behavior....his Son Jesus Christ.

Then why have the Christians turned him into a superhuman figure? ...an impossible example?

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Bartikus wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
I've alwasy sorta felt that way too Nick. Why do I get punished for something someone else did?

Why do we have the opportunity to be saved based on what someone else did?

God sent a model for our behavior....his Son Jesus Christ.

You mean his prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH). Don't enjoin mortals or anything for that matter with God; it's considered the gravest sin to do so. I thought Jesus (PBUH) already told his followers to worship God alone? How would God be willing to see His "only beggotten son" be nailed to a Cross by a bunch of hypocrites?

(Quran 19:34-35).

And Jesus is not the only model we should follow, everyone of His prophet's are an exemplemary model to follow - from Adam all the way down to Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

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I have a problem with the so-called "sacrifice" of Jesus for man's sins. Why does god have to have a sacrifice to satisfy himself?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I have a problem with the so-called "sacrifice" of Jesus for man's sins. Why does god have to have a sacrifice to satisfy himself?

He was not killed, it was only made to seem that way to them.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Quran 4:157-158)

That's why he is going to come back before the Day of Judgment to slay the anti-Christ and save the believers from his wrath.

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Raul-7 wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
I have a problem with the so-called "sacrifice" of Jesus for man's sins. Why does god have to have a sacrifice to satisfy himself?

He was not killed, it was only made to seem that way to them.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Quran 4:157-158)

That's why he is going to come back before the Day of Judgment to slay the anti-Christ and save the believers from his wrath.

In what manner will his return be?

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Raul-7 wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
Bella Dea wrote:
I've alwasy sorta felt that way too Nick. Why do I get punished for something someone else did?

Why do we have the opportunity to be saved based on what someone else did?

God sent a model for our behavior....his Son Jesus Christ.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

How do muslims define begot or begat? Who begot you?

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Raul-7 wrote:

NickFun wrote:
sandspider wrote:
If your mom buys you a gift for christmas, she wraps it and puts it under the tree and says "don't open it until Christmas" is she being cruel to put temptation in your path. damn mom how could you lol.

However, if we "sneak a peek" at the present we might get scolded but certainly not cast out of paradise and into eternal damnation! At least in most homes.

But you compare a measly present to the gift of being in Heaven, they had everything they wanted, except Satan's tempation got the best of them.

Should God have created a world with no temptation? Would that really be fair? Think of how limited your life would be.Don't blame god for evil, blame people for evil. Adam and eve is only a primitive explanation of where sin came from. People are not blamed for Adam's sin, that would contradict the notion that God is all loving and forgiving.

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Bartikus wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
I've alwasy sorta felt that way too Nick. Why do I get punished for something someone else did?

Why do we have the opportunity to be saved based on what someone else did?

God sent a model for our behavior....his Son Jesus Christ.

So Jesus is a model for our behavior.

What did Jesus do to get himself killed? Tradition says that during Passover he and his followers invaded the Temple and with wooden rods beat and drove out of the Temple those people who were selling animals for sacrifice.

Jesus demonstrated to us intolerance to a belief that was opposed to his own. He showed us that we can use violence and force to eliminate that which offends our religious beliefs.

Jesus was executed because he was a threat to the peace. He was a violent troublemaker; a security risk. Rome would not stand for that.

Is this the model we are suppose to follow?

I might add that Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. The religion he believed in was the Jewish religion. Anything outside of the Jewish religion would be something Jesus would reject.

Born a Jew; died a Jew.

After his death Jesus cannot be held responsible for anything religious nutcases said about him, made him into or what words they put in his mouth.

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Bible thumpers do not have to explain God, they simply believe without question.

As I understand it, God deliberately withheld knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve. He gave them natures that he knew were insufficient and failed to give them the necessary self-discipline, opportunity for character development, or obedience training to enable them to pass his test. An omniscient deity would have known EXACTLY what temptation would override their designed level of obedience, and he provided it. (Presumably the serpent got his cunning - and the information about the true nature of the fruit - from God himself.) Eve saw that the serpent told her the truth, realized that God had NOT been honest with them, and decided that knowledge was preferable over ignorance. Adam agreed with her and ate. God then punished all of us for their "sin," but a few thousand years later relented and gave Moses laws about ritually killing animals to avert his wrath.

Over a thousand years after that, God got tired of animal sacrifices and decided on a new method to allow himself to forgive us for having the flaws he designed into us. He impregnated a betrothed woman and had the resulting child grow up, challenge God's designated religious authorities and their interpretation of God's Laws, and get himself killed. But God would only forgive the people who believed in this improbable story, not the ones who faithfully upheld the Laws he gave to Moses. They and the rest of the people in the world would be tortured for all of eternity, even if they never heard the story or their own religion (or reason) prevented them from believing it.

IMO, the Jewish creation myth is a just-so story co-opted by Christians to explain why a loving God created evil and an omnipotent God fails to alleviate the pain and suffering in the world.

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sandspider wrote:

Should God have created a world with no temptation? Would that really be fair? Think of how limited your life would be.Don't blame god for evil, blame people for evil. Adam and eve is only a primitive explanation of where sin came from. People are not blamed for Adam's sin, that would contradict the notion that God is all loving and forgiving.

People did not create evil. We did not create our own natures. We did not create all of the diseases, pests, and natural disasters that torment us. Where do you suppose that the evil spirits/demons came from that Jesus supposedly cast out of people?

It is not fair to punish people for not having the character to resist temptation, when that character (or lack thereof) was given to us by God himself. Yes, people ARE blamed and punished for Adam's and Eve's sin:

in Romans 5, Paul wrote:

in 1 Timothy 2, Paul wrote:

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

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Terry wrote:

in 1 Timothy 2, Paul wrote:
t;] 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Ah! So this would also explain menstruation and menopause! And we should tell our wives and girlfriends to shut up! Right???

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NickFun wrote:

Terry wrote:
in 1 Timothy 2, Paul wrote:
t;] 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Ah! So this would also explain menstruation and menopause! And we should tell our wives and girlfriends to shut up! Right???

Only if your a good Christian.

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Bartikus wrote:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

How do muslims define begot or begat? Who begot you?

I know you don't believe in 3 seperate God's, but you basically divide God into three parts - which isn't right. Jesus is NOT a son of God, nor is the Holy Spirit part of God - the Angel Gibriel is the Holy Spirit, and God is not a father to anyone. You're basically degrading God's greatness by associating partners in His Divinity. He is free of human limitations, needs and wants. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.

Here's the call of God to all the Believers-

(Quran 4:171).

As for that verse, indeed the Quran does teach forgiveness in a lot of verses.

Here's one: "...They should rather pardon and overlook. Would you not love Allah to forgive you? Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'an, 24:22)

Even moreso, God even refers to the idolaters at war with Muslims like this: "If any of the idolaters ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe." (Surat at-Tawba: 6)

Any more comparative religion questions?