1
   

Massachusetts Derails Effort to Ban Same-Sex Marriages

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 05:29 pm
That thing about "choosing to be gay" is not certain, and you know it.

Unless you're going to claim definitive knowledge that no one else has...
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 05:35 pm
Baldimo wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
What else would it be. Its not a rights issue, gay people can already marry someone just like anyone else.


Yes, yes, Baldy. And in during the days that interracial marriage was illegal, white people could marry white people etc.


You can't compair race and homosexuality. One is chosen and the other is not. You can't chose to be black but you can chose to be with the same sex.


We are talking about choosing your preferences. You still had the choice to marry white.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Nov, 2006 06:35 pm
Baldimo wrote:
littlek wrote:
woiyo wrote:
You need to open your little mind to see my point apparently.

The 13th and 15th amendments changed the social structure of this nation.

Why are you afraid to have a State send to the voters to decide if a social norm should be changed?


Marriage is a social issue?


What else would it be. Its not a rights issue, gay people can already marry someone just like anyone else.


They can? It's a civic and legal issue. Not a social one. And evidence leans towards there being little or no choice in sexual orientation. Besides, Mesquite is right. The choice in inter-racial marriage is the marriage bit, not the race bit.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:14 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
snood wrote:
woiyo wrote:
[...]

Why won't this legislature allow the people to decide this issue?

If we'd followed that exact same reasoning, I might have had to sit at the back of the bus for another couple decades.

snood- There is an overriding consideration here. If all citizens had equal status, you would never have been obliged to sit at the back of the bus. No matter what the times, with the "equal protection" law in mind, no statute should have discriminated amongst any of its citizens.

We have come a long way since blacks sat at the back of the bus, and women could not vote.

... the latter of which was decided through the democratic process, as was the extension of the vote to 18-21 year olds. Therefore I don't see why courts would a priori be better agents of emancipation than parliaments. Which I think was woiyo's point.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:20 am
The democratic process did not address racism in certain parts of this country until after it was made plain that institutionalized racism would no longer be tolerated.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:45 am
edgarblythe wrote:
The democratic process did not address racism in certain parts of this country until after it was made plain that institutionalized racism would no longer be tolerated.

Neither did the courts. See Scott v. Sanford, Plessy v. Fergusson and other Supreme Court Cases. When the Brown Court overturned Plessy in 1955, it reacted to a profound change in social mores, as did the legislatures that abolished eugenics, and those who ratified the 19th and 26th amendments. And while the Supreme Court recently did a lot to quash discrimination against blacks, many of its most shameful human rights precedents remain good law to this day. For example, see Buck v. Bell, emphatically endorsing eugenics programs ("Three generations of imbeciles are enough"). Also see Korematsu v. United States, permitting as constituional the internment of over 100,000 innocent Japanese Americans. If American law today grants equal protection to Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, and Americans with heritable disabilities, it's thanks to a change in mores expressed through democracy. There's little in these matters to thank the courts for.

The pious devotion America's civil libertarians in accord to courts will always mystify me.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 06:47 am
I agree that that particular chicken preceded that particular egg, edgar, but both the civic awakening of the public, and the federal legislated reply were necessary to move forward from institutionalized racism.

I think both are also needed to move forward from institutionalized homophobia.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 07:01 am
But it was one part of the nation moving on another part of the nation, more so than the racists seeing the light. George Wallace did not speak against racism until long after it was no longer institutionalized. I agree with snood that the same process is in effect re homophobia.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:02 am
Thomas wrote:
The pious devotion America's civil libertarians in accord to courts will always mystify me.


You just make a fool of yourself with stupid remarks like this. Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Mr. Justice Taney when he sent Dred Scott back into slavery? Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Korematu?

As is the case with anything else in the political realm, people applaud or deplore events legislative or judicial based on Luther's pithy referrence to whose ox has been gored. Civil libertarians are alarmed when someone such as Mr. Justice Roberts is appointed to the Supremes. As with any other group, civil libertarians applaud what coincides with the prejudices which they cherish, and deplore that which offends their cherished prejudices. Your remark is without foundation.

***************************************

On the issue of marriage, in Loving versus Virginia, the Court held that the concept of equal application does not establish a statute successfully if there is a conflict with the XIVth Amendment. In the majority opinion, Mr. Justice Warren wrote:

Quote:
Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose.


It is entirely possible that at some point in the future (although it is highly unlikely with the Court as it is currently composed), the Court may find in a similar manner with regard to same sex marriage. One thing is certain, to my mind, and that is that prohibitions on same sex marraige constitute a violation of the XIVth Amendment in just the same manner that Virginia's anti-miscegenation laws were held to have done by the Warren Court. Time will tell, of course, and in the case of same sex marriage, it is interesting to see "civil libertarians" squirm when their prejudices clash, when they favor a freedom of association which would conflict with a repugnance for homosexuality. We shall see, or course, just who thinks their own favorite ox has been gored.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:12 am
Setanta wrote:
Thomas wrote:
The pious devotion America's civil libertarians in accord to courts will always mystify me.


You just make a fool of yourself with stupid remarks like this. Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Mr. Justice Taney when he sent Dred Scott back into slavery? Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Korematu?

No. I'm suggesting that today's civil libertarians ignore these experiences when they try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 09:16 am
I outlined this on another thread but it bears repeating here. So many "Republicans" are anti-gay. However, I managed to "out" a guy I knew. Here's the post:

It seems everyone has an opinion as to whether being gay is a product of genetics, environment, bilogy societal conditioning or a something else entirely. A beefy Republican friend of mine -- who claims to be "super straight" -- argues that it's a choice. He's totally anti-gay and brags about how much he hates gays. During our conversation I tried to be diplomatic with him, seeing as he was 6'3 and over 300lbs, but a moral sense of righteousness dictated that I stand my ground and prove to him that he's wrong. Our conversation went something like this:

Me: Being gay is not a choice.

Him: Of course it's a choice!

Me: Look, when you were a teenager did you "decide" that women were going to make your dick hard and men were not or did it just sorta happen all by itself?

Him: I decided!!!

Me: Ok, you decided. In order for it to be a "choice" then you must get turned on by both men AND women! That means that YOU are gay my friend!

Him: I AM NOT GAY!!! (He pounds his fist on the desk and glares at me. Then he starts ranting and raving) WHO ARE YOU TO CALL ME GAY?? I'M A MARRIED MAN WITH TWO KIDS!!! I OUTA WHIP YOUR ASS HERE AN NOW!!!

I guess "ass-whipping" is a sure sign of "not being gay". His face turned flush with anger. At this point I ran for the door with him in pursuit. I was fast enough to escape him as staying in one place would have meant certain death. I haven't heard from him since.

No doubt about it. He's gay.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 10:54 am
Thomas wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Thomas wrote:
The pious devotion America's civil libertarians in accord to courts will always mystify me.


You just make a fool of yourself with stupid remarks like this. Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Mr. Justice Taney when he sent Dred Scott back into slavery? Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Korematu?

No. I'm suggesting that today's civil libertarians ignore these experiences when they try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures.


http://shoutluton.com/attractions/images/strawman.jpg

Your evidence that "today's civil libertarians . . . try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures" is? (Recall, that without further qualification, you are imputing said behavior to all of "today's civil libertarians" at all times--therefore, you'll need to explain their dismay at the appointment of people like Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, not to mention John Roberts).

It is and always will be a question of whose ox has allegely been gored.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 11:12 am
Setanta wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Thomas wrote:
The pious devotion America's civil libertarians in accord to courts will always mystify me.


You just make a fool of yourself with stupid remarks like this. Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Mr. Justice Taney when he sent Dred Scott back into slavery? Do you suggest that American civil libertarians applauded Korematu?

No. I'm suggesting that today's civil libertarians ignore these experiences when they try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures.


http://shoutluton.com/attractions/images/strawman.jpg

Your evidence that "today's civil libertarians . . . try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures" is? (Recall, that without further qualification, you are imputing said behavior to all of "today's civil libertarians" at all times--therefore, you'll need to explain their dismay at the appointment of people like Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, not to mention John Roberts).

It is and always will be a question of whose ox has allegely been gored.


They were upset because there were people put in to the USSC who were not going to read into a Constutitional Amendment things that are not there. Like the right to privacy which allowed abortion to become legal.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
Your evidence that "today's civil libertarians . . . try to empower courts at the cost of legislatures" is? (Recall, that without further qualification, you are imputing said behavior to all of "today's civil libertarians" at all times--therefore, you'll need to explain their dismay at the appointment of people like Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, not to mention John Roberts).

For two reasons: First, these judges have committed themselves to interpreting the constitution narrowly and close to its original intent. Sometimes they even make good on this pledge. (See, for example, their jurisprudence on the Commerce, Due Process, and Equal Protection clauses.

The second reason is that in practice, these judges use the interpretive leeway created by the civil libertarian Warren Court to pursue constitutionally dubious policy goals of the conservativive movement. (Consider their take on executive powers in the Guantanamo and terrorism cases.)

Points #1 and #2 have in common that they both frustrate the civil libertarians' tactic of pursuing their less pouplar political ends through creative interpretation of the constitution. The difference between them is that point #2 depends on whose ox has been gored, while point #1 does not.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:24 pm
Baldimo wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
What else would it be. Its not a rights issue, gay people can already marry someone just like anyone else.


Yes, yes, Baldy. And in during the days that interracial marriage was illegal, white people could marry white people etc.


You can't compair race and homosexuality. One is chosen and the other is not. You can't chose to be black but you can chose to be with the same sex.


I don't see a difference - You can't chose to be a homosexual and you can't chose to be a black, but you can also choose not to be with some one of a different race.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:26 pm
Linkat wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
mesquite wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
What else would it be. Its not a rights issue, gay people can already marry someone just like anyone else.


Yes, yes, Baldy. And in during the days that interracial marriage was illegal, white people could marry white people etc.


You can't compair race and homosexuality. One is chosen and the other is not. You can't chose to be black but you can chose to be with the same sex.


I don't see a difference - You can't chose to be a homosexual and you can't chose to be a black, but you can also choose not to be with some one of a different race.


Sorry, Homosexuality isn't a choice for many people.

Don't you think that many, such as Rev. Haggard who was recently caught, would choose not to be gay as it would make their life much, much easier if they weren't?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:46 pm
Thomas wrote:
For two reasons: First, these judges have committed themselves to interpreting the constitution narrowly and close to its original intent.


You have not demonstrated, and i contend that you cannot demonstrate, that a judge of any perceived description is more or less able than any other judge to "interpret the constitution narrowly and close to its original intent." You just pile one unsubstantiated assertion on the other. What was the original intent, and how do you assert that you can describe the original intent? That would be the burden of proof for anyone asserting that those Justices, or any other judge, were able to interpret the constitution "close to its original intent." Don't forget that these judges are adherents, as they profess themselves, of the concept of "natural law." If the moral imperatives of "natural law" were to conflict with what someone could putatively identify with the original intent of the framers of the Constitution, would you expect these Justices to dissent from that alleged original intent, or to abandon (at least in that case) the concept of natural law?

Quote:
Sometimes they even make good on this pledge. (See, for example, their jurisprudence on the Commerce, Due Process, and Equal Protection clauses.


In that you do not demonstrate what original intent is, nor where we can look to find it reliably defined, this is another unsubstantiated contention piled upon the former unsubstantiated contentions which you have advanced.

Quote:
The second reason is that in practice, these judges use the interpretive leeway created by the civil libertarian Warren Court to pursue constitutionally dubious policy goals of the conservativive movement. (Consider their take on executive powers in the Guantanamo and terrorism cases.)


In which case one could well assert that they are as inimical to legislative supremecy of law-making as are any judges alleged to be liberal judicial activists. Once again, this is an unsubstantiated assertion on your part, unless you can show first that their decisions are indeed constitutionally dubious, and second that there is any substantive difference between the reaction of conservatives who support this form of "judicial activism" and the reaction (veneration of the courts) by those whom you have described as "today's civil libertarians" in cases in which courts can be reasonably alleged to have supported a social agenda dear to the hearts of said civil libertarians.

Quote:
Points #1 and #2 have in common that they both frustrate the civil libertarians' tactic of pursuing their less pouplar political ends through creative interpretation of the constitution. The difference between them is that point #2 depends on whose ox has been gored, while point #1 does not.


You have not defined who it is that constitutes this amorphous group whom you choose to label as civil libertarians. Had you discretely defined such a group, you have not established that they universally applaud a discrete set of civil liberty goals. You have not established that some, all or even any of such goals are "less popular political ends." You have not demonstrated that judicial decisions to which you vaguely refer can reasonably be described as "creative interpretation of the constitution."

Most importantly, absent the ability to point without quibble to what was or was not the original intent of the framers of the Constitution, your Point #1 is no less a case of whose ox has been gored that would be your Point #2. Throughout, you have made a set of unsubstantiated assertions, regarding an undefined group of persons whom you label (with apparent contempt) as "today's civil libertarians," by reference to unspecified examples of allaged judicial activism, and upon which assertions you proceed to further unsubstantiate assertions.

Had you simply said that all of this occurs in your opinion, i might have ignored your statements, or have been willing to argue against some or all of your thesis. As it is, however, you offer all of this bundle of vague assertion about an undefined set of people reacting to an imprecisely defined set of judicial opinions as though you were describing fact. You speak ex cathedra, when i have no good reason to assume that you are a member of the requisite clergy.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:50 pm
I disagree, Setanta, but for the sake of relieving the load on A2K's server, I'll leave the last word to you.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 12:55 pm
I understand that you disagree--however, that brings up an important question, which overrides the burden on the server.

Do you disagree that i have no good reason to assume you are entitled to speak ex cathedra on what constitutes original intent, and who does nor doesn't hew closely to that line? Because if you do, i would like to know what your credentials are that establish you as qualified to judge what original intent were, and which judges and Supreme Court Justices adhere to more closely to original intent than do all other judges and Supreme Court Justices.

In short, do you disagree that you have spoken from authority without having established the authority to which you claim you are entitled, or simply that you disagree on the issue of judicial activism?

If the latter, my only comment would be: "Well, Du-uh."
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Nov, 2006 01:14 pm
Setanta wrote:
In short, do you disagree that you have spoken from authority without having established the authority to which you claim you are entitled, or simply that you disagree on the issue of judicial activism?

I disagree with you about judicial activism, and believe -- no, make that "hope" -- that as a rule, my readers are smart. By this I mean: smart enough to notice I am giving my opinion even if I don't start my sentences by saying, "In my opinion, ...". I am saddened to hear that you apparently are an exception to this rule.

Setanta wrote:
If the latter, my only comment would be: "Well, Du-uh."

A succinct analysis, which in my opinion is profound, authoritative, and final.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 10/14/2024 at 02:20:58