Tipping Etiquette

I usually do tip in motels and hotels, as best I can.

Back in my hotel for my visit to Chicago, I made particular emphasis, having gotten to know the hotel folks moderately well through a variety of silly conversations, that my room cleaner got these dollars. I think she well may have, I'm not all so faulty a character reader. She also might not have, of course, but I'll bet on that one. (I gave her the tip as I left, at the desk, and waited until they got her name).

Frankly, I don't always connect all that well, but in this case I apparently wore the completely oddly acceptable thing (I forget what it was but I do wear odd things, from time to time), and the suavo guy in the elevator and I started talking. I had a feeling the whole time in that place that I had a label of "ok". I'm fully aware, or nearly so, of con, but that wasn't what was going on. More a loose group of hotel clerks and overseers. They went out of their way for me several times, with no tips until I left, and, I think, surprised them with the largesse that I could scramble to give, which wasn't shabby and didn't affect future politenesses from them.. I know I was just one more person across the courtesy desk, but several of those folks helped me. Travelodge Downtown, Chicago. Not your elite hotel, but I liked the people.

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cyphercat wrote:

Of course, this doesn't reflect on Reyn, we know he'd never do any of those things!! :wink:

Chai Tea wrote:

I agree you cypher about what Reyn and other Candians have said...they are I'm sure totally normal otherwise.

I've been accused of being cheap (in an indirect way), but rest assured, I'm sympathetic to those who are paid low wages.

It doesn't matter where it occurs - the U.S. or Canada, or whatever. The point is that everybody deserves to make a decent living wage.

BUT, my viewpoint on tipping, in general, is entirely philosophical. Why is tipping only done on a very select section of workers? Are others not as deserving of a little extra to make ends meet?

Where does one person's job duties end and "extra personal service" begin?

Tipping in one industry breeds resentment in other sections where the wages are just as low and the work just as unfullfilling.

Obviously, some feel very passionate about their views as expressed by the majority here, but your passion is misplaced. It should be directed at legislators to pass laws to see that workers are not cheated out of a decent minimum wage. I agree, it is ridiculously low in some areas of the U.S. In Canada, it has greatly improved to what it was before.

The burden of improved living conditions for low paid workers should not come at the expense of customers (in the form of tipping) They are already paying decent prices for goods and services where they go.

When minimum wages go up, customers expect the prices of the goods and services they buy to go up. So, better wages can be supported that way. That is how it should be supported and I agree with it.

So, if legislators increased their various minimum wages, and it was enforced, restaurant owners would need to increase the prices of their meals to accomodate this. The competitive edge would be the same, because everyone would need to pay the same basic wage.

On an interesting note here, the likes of places like McDonald's in my city is payer higher than the minimum wage. Why? Because they can't keep people in those jobs.

I'm sure there will be folks who will still call me colourful names (in an indirect way, of course). That will only end up with this topic being locked. So, how about we discuss in a nice friendly way?

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In Holland and Hungary, I tip about 10% in restaurants.

I've always thought that was normal, kinda surprised about Old Europe's Wikipedia link - tipping is uncommon in Europe?? Weird, I've always considered a 10% restaurant tip mere decency. Unless the service was just bad, really.

In cafes though, its true - giving a tip on your drinks is really atypical in Holland. Except perhaps in the fancier cocktail-type places. Here in Hungary it seems much more common to give a tip in cafes and pubs as well though.

Here in Hungary though you have another problem - in many cafes, the touristy ones not least, the waitresses / barpeople dont actually get to keep the tip. So you're just giving extra money to the owner. But in other cafes, the waitresses practically live on the tips, since the actual wages are below bizarre. $4/hour is good, $3/hour bad but not at all uncommon. So I usually just play it on the safe side and tip, anyway.

(Next time youre somewhere in Central Europe and the waitress is especially grumpy do keep this in mind though - she might well be working for $3,50/hour and not be getting her tips either.)

Never thought about tipping for take-out. But the pizza delivery boy (in Holland, havent tried it here) expects a tip.

Never once thought about leaving a tip on the pillow or night-table in a hotel, until A worked as a cleaner in a hotel. Since then I remember.

All that said, I can see Reyn's point as well.

Purely from my cultural perspective, the 20% tip you tend to leave in the US strikes me as bizarre. Until I hear what (below-)minimum wage many waitresses etc live on.

But then I do become angry in the same logic Reyn described: there's something truly bizarro in individual customers having to make up with oversized tips for employers refusing to pay a decent living wage.

In the long run only political action can correct that - higher minimum wages, and stricter enforcement on companies dodging the law on that.

But in the short term, what can you do - punish the waitress for her employer not paying a decent wage by not giving her the oversized tip that would compensate? Thats not right either.

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nimh, I'll be in Budapest on November 30, December 1, and 2. Any chance of getting together for drinks and/or a meal? I don't have PM privileges, so it'll have to be open to public view.

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Well, in italy, when I was last there, admittedly pre euro, 1999. there was a servizio, which I remember as being around 15%, so that if you wanted to add a courtesy on top, if would be low, and I forget the denomination. Say, fifteen hundred lire.

I don't know how that all works, and even less do I know about any distribution of money in italy in general.

I do know, the waitpeople are very sharp, within my view.

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I came back for a last look before bed and had to laugh - I missed this part by Chai:

"I agree you cypher about what Reyn and other Candians have said...they are I'm sure totally normal otherwise."

LOL "... totally normal OTHERWISE ... " LMAO!! Good to have that endorsement, eh? lol Laughing

Very funny.

You make very sound points, Reyn, in a rational fashion. In particular, I agree when you said:

"BUT, my viewpoint on tipping, in general, is entirely philosophical. Why is tipping only done on a very select section of workers? Are others not as deserving of a little extra to make ends meet?"

That is precisely how I feel. Why should servers get more money (in the form of tips) than a gas jockey or a cleaning lady or a pharmacy clerk? They don't deserve any more money, no matter how many dirty plates they're cleaning... we're just used to tipping them. God Forbid anything should CHANGE. Eeek.

Boy, this is about as good as it gets on the religion forum Laughing

And yeah, I'm in an ornery mood. But I'm going to bed now (t5:00 comes early) so peace out.

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nimh wrote:

All that said, I can see Reyn's point as well.

Purely from my cultural perspective, the 20% tip you tend to leave in the US strikes me as bizarre. Until I hear what (below-)minimum wage many waitresses etc live on.

But then I do become angry in the same logic Reyn described: there's something truly bizarro in individual customers having to make up with oversized tips for employers refusing to pay a decent living wage.

In the long run only political action can correct that - higher minimum wages, and stricter enforcement on companies dodging the law on that.

I was going to add to edit my post to include that I honestly feel that tipping is the wrong way to improve the working conditions for improving low paying jobs, never mind a select segment of society.

The most forgotten segment of workers are farm workers, who are probably the lowest paid. This is probably true no matter what country we're talking about.

Workers need and deserve decent laws that are enforced on employers. Let's face it, as consumers, we all know that costs are passed down to us. Why would the industry where workers are tipped be any different?

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Well, we can start with the minimum wage, but that's a whole new ball of wax.

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Reyn wrote:

I've been accused of being cheap (in an indirect way), but rest assured, I'm sympathetic to those who are paid low wages.

Aw, Reyn!

You know I love you, I was just joshin'. I should have been clearer that I was joking and totally understand your p.o.v.

Your point is perfectly valid-- I have no argument with what either you or Mame is saying at all as far as that there is no good reason why waitpersons should be tipped and people in other jobs not, except that I think without that incentive, quality of service in restaurants would go way down, because it really is a particularly hard job; customers are more demanding in that situation than in other service jobs (in my experience, both as a customer and as a worker).

I also happen to like the extra challenge of trying to keep people happy enough to get good tippage. It's very satisfying to know that you've done a particularly good day's work and gotten an extra reward for it; but I am aware that there's another side to that too, of course. I do understand why people feel an objection to it because they feel it creates a kind of servile, class-division kind of thing. But the thing is, I have always found that customers treat workers in any kind of service job as second-class citizens anyway; I don't find that the tipper/tippee relationship adds to that. I always felt that it actually gave back a little power to the person in the service role, because it's kind of an unspoken agreement between you and the customer-- yep, I'll work my butt off to keep you happy, but you understand that this isn't all a one-sided deal... Whereas, when I was a sales clerk, I had to take people's crappy attitudes, keep smiling and doing whatever it took (if I didn't want my boss on my back), and for absolutely nothing from the customer. Now that can make you feel really pissed on... So I see what you and Mame are saying that there's no more reason to tip a waitress than anyone else, but I guess I just think of it as the one area where a customer is expected to give a little back. If you can make customers give respect instead of tips, I'll sign up for that deal! Smile

Anyway, none of that applies to people who come from countries where tipping isn't customary. Then it's a cultural difference, and I find that much different than waiting on someone who I know perfectly well is American, knows what's expected in American restaurants, and is just being a jerk. There is a definite kind of person who just doesn't tip because not giving you seventy-five cents makes them feel good, and I certainly don't lump you in with that kind of person.

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Oh yeah...tipping in hotels...I'll leave a couple bucks for the chambermaid, they have a really yucky job at times.

I had a roommate in college that worked at a restort as a chambermaid over summbers, and the stories she would tell about what people left behind.....yeeeesshhh...they were another group that the more the mess, the less the chance of a tip.

I dunno, you may ask why I'd leave a tip in a relatively clean room because someone else left a disgusting mess....I guess in the big cosmic wheel of life, it all evens out. Karma I guess. We all get it back sooner or later.

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nimh wrote:

But then I do become angry in the same logic Reyn described: there's something truly bizarro in individual customers having to make up with oversized tips for employers refusing to pay a decent living wage.

And herein lies the basic difference between American captilism and European socialism that runs through many, many threads here at A2K. Why should the government force employers to pay a certain wage? The U.S. has a concept of "minimum wage" but in reality it is just a dirty look. Most employers pay more than the minimum wage already, and when it gets raised, most don't care as they're already paying more for anyone worth having as an employee. Crap, the going rate for undocumented day workers is $100/day.

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old europe wrote:

Did they tip too much, or not enough, or forget to tip when paying with credit card, or did they tip on tax?

I have to admit that the concept of adding a tip on that credit card paper thingy was completely alien to me, though. People had to explain it to me.

(Isn't it nice that there are still some cultural differences?)

Typically way too little. You worry about a knife in the back on your way out of the place....

As far as tipping on the credit card slip - that is optional. You can just leave cash, which I often do. Many if not most servers prefer that.

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Did I mention I don't tip Americans? :wink:

American tourists here is a whole other story regarding tipping. Lousy bastards. Laughing

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cjhsa wrote:

And herein lies the basic difference between American captilism and European socialism that runs through many, many threads here at A2K. Why should the government force employers to pay a certain wage? The U.S. has a concept of "minimum wage" but in reality it is just a dirty look. Most employers pay more than the minimum wage already, and when it gets raised, most don't care as they're already paying more for anyone worth having as an employee. Crap, the going rate for undocumented day workers is $100/day.

We don't have a forced minimum wage and government is totally out of the tariff business. It's all between employers and employees.

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ossobuco wrote:

Well, in italy, when I was last there, admittedly pre euro, 1999. there was a servizio, which I remember as being around 15%, so that if you wanted to add a courtesy on top, if would be low, and I forget the denomination. Say, fifteen hundred lire.

True, that always kind of confuses me. There is this one place here that I go to regularly, and their bills already include a tip (or service fee), of 10% I think.

On the one hand I feel cheated by that - the tip is supposed to reward good service, not be an automatized given, and also feel cheated feeling that I should give a tip on top of the tip.

On the other hand, I do most of the time anyway, just because I'm pretty sure that the tip thats already included in the bill does not go to the waitresses, and they are (usually) nice people.

Mame wrote:

That is precisely how I feel. Why should servers get more money (in the form of tips) than a gas jockey or a cleaning lady or a pharmacy clerk? They don't deserve any more money, no matter how many dirty plates they're cleaning...

Well, to be fair though, waitering is really one of the toughest / hardest jobs around. Have you ever done it? In my student times I did a bunch of different menial jobs - lots of order picking in warehouses, sometimes on night or early morning shifts, worked a night in the bakery, two weeks as a mailman in winter early mornings, I worked in Ikea stocking the storage room, hauling up heavy things, I did stocking in a ToysRUs shop, I spent days putting stamps into envelopes, God I dont know what. But the few months I worked a coupla nights a week waitering in a fancy restaurant were the very hardest and most difficult job I've ever done.

You have to remember so many different things at the same time, work so hard, and get no respect. It was definitely way more difficult than my job now - even though I earn twice as much doing this. Really, they deserve a tip.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
And herein lies the basic difference between American captilism and European socialism that runs through many, many threads here at A2K. Why should the government force employers to pay a certain wage? The U.S. has a concept of "minimum wage" but in reality it is just a dirty look. Most employers pay more than the minimum wage already, and when it gets raised, most don't care as they're already paying more for anyone worth having as an employee. Crap, the going rate for undocumented day workers is $100/day.

We don't have a forced minimum wage and government is totally out of the tariff business. It's all between employers and employees.

We do I think. I'm no legal expert but an employer who pays less than the minimum wage is breaking the law, I think.

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nimh wrote:

We do I think. I'm no legal expert but an employer who pays less than the minimum wage is breaking the law, I think.

Well, we don't have a minimum wage, only tariffs between the unions and the employers.
Some firms outside the employer's association may pay less.

What I wanted to say is just that the government isn't arranging anything re wages, though there are relevant labour laws about this, correct.

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It probably differs from country to country. Employer and employee organisations do establish tariff agreements (CAO's) in Holland too, regulating per branch of industry what the min and max wage increase will be this year, for example, and labour conditions regulations etc. But the minimum wage, far as I know, is set by the government, and an employer cant legally go underneath it.

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You have basically regulated Europe into third world country status. Good on ya!

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