Whistling in the graveyard...

hephzibah wrote:

Yeah it sure is littlek... LOL

I am less than an inch from renouncing belief in God. No joke.

I have a question for the christians here in this place:

If God's love is so unconditional, why does He put so many conditions on "serving" Him?

What conditions?

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Wow, heph, that is an amazing change of course. I agree about all the conditions--it had me wondering from the time I was little.

Would you mind telling us how it is going with you? To make a change as an adult after a lifetime of believing must mean some friendships will become stressed. It takes courage to follow your own mind. Good luck.

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Hep - Sometimes the best way to find the truth is to ask a lot of questions. The problem with religious institutions is that they don't want you to ask questions, just accept their answers- or else.

I think the hardest thing about questioning the existence of God is discovering that there is no safety net. You are responsible for your own actions and you cannot control the actions of others. Bad things happen not because God has a plan, but because people make bad choices or accidents occur. It's easy to believe there is a loving God pulling the strings when life is going well. It's easy to dismiss the suffering of others by thinking if they were good people God wouldn't allow such bad things to happen to them. It makes people feel smug, safe and superior to think God loves them best and everyone else is going to hell. While you are seeking God, keep your moral compass, that way if he exists he will be pleased by your standards, and if he doesn't exist at least the world will benefit from your good intentions.

I personally don't know if there is a God, but if there is, he sure seems to keep out of the affairs of humans.

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I've been there and done that.

I don't mean to push Heph in my direction - in fact there are many places to explore, and at least for me, it took years do do that.

I'll just say hi, across the the intricate - or not at all intricate - chasms.

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Whistling is the deceased wind being formulated and re-animated by the tongue, lips and lungs.

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Arella Mae wrote:

Heph?

Arella?

neologist wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Yeah it sure is littlek... LOL

I am less than an inch from renouncing belief in God. No joke.

I have a question for the christians here in this place:

If God's love is so unconditional, why does He put so many conditions on "serving" Him?
What conditions?

Hi Neo.

Hmmm Let's see here...

I could make you a list from the bible, but at this point I'm a wee bit too tired too look all that stuff up. However if you are that serious about wanting a list I'd be more than happy to make you one within the next few days.

However, I was also talking about the conditions that "christians" seem to come up with. Like... here's an example... Yesterday at lunch this friend that so kindly informed me I am going to hell made another abrasive comment.

After she told me I was going to hell I made the comment:

"You know... that slides real easy off the lips of someone who was handed the "perfect christian life" on a silver platter."

She gasp and said, "Who ME? You must be kidding."

"Absolutely not." I said. "Look at you. A "good christian" husband who loves you and stood by you even though you cheated on him. Didn't even think of leaving you. Why? Because he loves the "Lord". And did you have to look to find him? Oh no. He just fell right in your lap. Yep. Me though? I wait 12 years, patiently (most of the time) doing my absolute best to stay faithful to God, pure in every way, trust that God had the right person for me, and look what I get handed, a verbally and emotionally abusive alcoholic husband who proclaims to be the best christian alive. Somehow that just doesn't seem right to me. And now what? Hmmm? Now I'm suppose to run right back into the arms of Jesus and wait another 12, 15, 20 years just to go through the same thing all over again? Thanks, but no thanks."

She looked me strait in the eyes and said:

"Well... you must not have been serving God too well if that's what you were given. Obviously, your heart wasn't right. Obviously you made a bad choice and weren't listening to God. Obviously you were the problem not God... God would bless you if you did things HIS way, but obviously YOU weren't."

Yeah obviously.

But I sure thought I was. Yes I did.

So, rather than waste any more time playing this cat and mouse game with "God", I think I'm ready to try my wings. Explore the world I live in from a different perspective. From a perspective of not having to try to measure up to standards that can't be measured up to anyway, so I have to ask for forgiveness every day because well... OBVIOUSLY I just can't cut the mustard here. Cool

Now... don't get me wrong here Neo. I'm mighty grateful to "religion" in some aspects. It was the crutch for me that brought me through all those horrible things I went through as a child. It was the thing I leaned on, counted on, and believed in that gave me the strength to believe in myself. There's no denying that or changing that. I don't honestly know that I would have had it any other way because I think it's help shape me into who I am today. I don't know if I could have learned to see the good in people without having had a side trip through the maze of religion.

I've reached the end of the maze.

I'm free.

Diane wrote:

Wow, heph, that is an amazing change of course. I agree about all the conditions--it had me wondering from the time I was little.

Would you mind telling us how it is going with you? To make a change as an adult after a lifetime of believing must mean some friendships will become stressed. It takes courage to follow your own mind. Good luck.

Diane, I think this has been a long time coming. There might be some stress on some relationships as a result of this. *shrugs* I'm not really worried about it. If they really "love" me as they say they do, they won't hate me for not believing what they believe anymore. If they do, that just goes to show how insecure they really are in what they believe... that they would only be kind to those who believe the same as them. Smile

Green Witch wrote:

Hep - Sometimes the best way to find the truth is to ask a lot of questions. The problem with religious institutions is that they don't want you to ask questions, just accept their answers- or else.

I think the hardest thing about questioning the existence of God is discovering that there is no safety net. You are responsible for your own actions and you cannot control the actions of others. Bad things happen not because God has a plan, but because people make bad choices or accidents occur. It's easy to believe there is a loving God pulling the strings when life is going well. It's easy to dismiss the suffering of others by thinking if they were good people God wouldn't allow such bad things to happen to them. It makes people feel smug, safe and superior to think God loves them best and everyone else is going to hell. While you are seeking God, keep your moral compass, that way if he exists he will be pleased by your standards, and if he doesn't exist at least the world will benefit from your good intentions.

I personally don't know if there is a God, but if there is, he sure seems to keep out of the affairs of humans.

You are right Green Witch. I tried my best not to live like that. To not be that way. I failed sometimes, but I never really felt it was ok to think I was somehow better than others just because of what I believed. I always wanted to believe that the same love I felt so strongly in my heart from "God" was extended to everyone, not just me. Not based on conditions of any sort. Just because it was... well... unconditional...

Obviously the unconditional thing is just a cloak. I think I see now just how conditional it really is. What a disappointment mingled with a breath of fresh air that maybe there is more to life outside of impossible religious boundaries. Very Happy

ossobuco wrote:

I've been there and done that.

I don't mean to push Heph in my direction - in fact there are many places to explore, and at least for me, it took years do do that.

I'll just say hi, across the the intricate - or not at all intricate - chasms.

Hi osso.

RexRed wrote:

Whistling is the deceased wind being formulated and re-animated by the tongue, lips and lungs.

Thanks for the definition Rex. Smile

Now... If you will excuse me for a short time I need to take a nap so I can have the energy needed to work both my jobs since "God" only blesses the self-righteous "christians" who dress just right, talk just right, and do everything just the way "HE" wants it. :wink:

Catch ya'll later. Cool

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"Renouncing" God is sort of like starting a thread, declaring emotionally that you will leave this forum....but then you never do. (Hey, we've all done it...) Laughing

Forget renouncing God. Just don't allow religious beliefs to stop you from seeking answers. Whatever happens as a result of your questions--and answers--happens.

Anyway, good luck. No matter where your journey to the truth takes you.

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Being a better believer doesn't neccasirly God is going to give you the best life on Earth, after all this life is short and full of hardships. This life is actually a test, we're all going to face hardships in one way or another, either by loss of life, occupation, etc. and the true believer is the one that remains steadfast and patient. And they will be rewarded graciously for that in their next life.

"Be sure we shall test you with fear and hunger, someloss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere." (Surat al-Baqara, 2:155)

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Matthew 5:45 ~ that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust

Heph,

It's part of life. I know plenty of good Christians that have trials unending and I know plenty of non-Christians that seem to have the easy life with no problems whatsoever.

I am sorry that your friend did that to you. I can tell it really caused you pain. I think that is why it is so important for us to not accuse and judge one another. We all have things in our lives that are against God in one way or another, so how can we point our finger at another and say, "You are wrong"? And yet, it seems to be one of the simplest things for US ALL to fall into at times.

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There is great comfort to be had in thinking OF religion. Actually thinking objectively, critically, logically, analytically, honestly ABOUT religion provides nowhere near so much convenience.

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Very true Timber.

Arella and Raul, Hep. is looking for new answers. I know you mean well, but such a response is typical when a person doesn't want to be a member of your club anymore. Maybe she will eventually decide your answers are correct for her, or some other religion has the answers she seeks, or she will need to invent her own answers. It's her journey, let her explore the newness of it without the old dogma dogging her.

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I can't sleep! Grrrrr Evil or Very Mad

I'm drinking wine to try to counteract the caffein I drank this morning... Drunk

*sigh*

Lash wrote:

"Renouncing" God is sort of like starting a thread, declaring emotionally that you will leave this forum....but then you never do. (Hey, we've all done it...)

Forget renouncing God. Just don't allow religious beliefs to stop you from seeking answers. Whatever happens as a result of your questions--and answers--happens.

Anyway, good luck. No matter where your journey to the truth takes you.

LOL So true lash. So true indeed. I wasn't planning on making any great announcement here... with trumpets blowing and a parade. Hehehe... I would still like to get an answer from a of the "christians" to my original question though. :wink:

I'm not wishing to renounce "God" or make a big production of this. I'm simply going to lay aside all the hocus pocus and move on. In a much different direction. *smiles*

Thanks for the wish for good luck. Very Happy

Raul-7 wrote:

Being a better believer doesn't neccasirly God is going to give you the best life on Earth, after all this life is short and full of hardships. This life is actually a test, we're all going to face hardships in one way or another, either by loss of life, occupation, etc. and the true believer is the one that remains steadfast and patient. And they will be rewarded graciously for that in their next life.

"Be sure we shall test you with fear and hunger, someloss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere." (Surat al-Baqara, 2:155)

Don't tell me that Raul... tell all them thar christians cause I just don't give a flip no more. :wink:

Arella Mae wrote:

Matthew 5:45 ~ that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust

Heph,

It's part of life. I know plenty of good Christians that have trials unending and I know plenty of non-Christians that seem to have the easy life with no problems whatsoever.

I am sorry that your friend did that to you. I can tell it really caused you pain. I think that is why it is so important for us to not accuse and judge one another. We all have things in our lives that are against God in one way or another, so how can we point our finger at another and say, "You are wrong"? And yet, it seems to be one of the simplest things for US ALL to fall into at times.

Actually Arella you are quite wrong on this one. I'm not "hurt". I'm tired of the BS. I'm tired of being told how unrighteous I am by people who have their heads so far up their own friggin butts they don't even know what sunshine looks like anymore. What she said didn't affect my feelings in anything more than for the first time in my life I finally HEARD how completely and utterly ridiculous what "christians" say is.

I don't feel condemned.

I don't feel scared.

I don't feel judged.

I just feel hmmmm...

Free from others expectations.

Free from trying to be something I'm not.

Free from someone else running the show in my life.

Free from waiting for something good to happen.

Free to make something good happen.

Free.

I don't expect you to understand that though, because I've been where you are at. I know how completely consuming what you believe is. I know the terror it strikes in your heart concerning me, my well being, and my eternal welfare. I know Arella. I do. And I know that I don't want to live like that anymore. It's just that simple.

But I know that I still consider you my friend and everyone else that is "christian" that I'm involved with. I'm not planning some big attack on your beliefs, or you personally. I may occasionally challenge some things if given the opportunity, however, I still stand that we are all just people trying to find our way through this life. I've chosen a different path. But regardless of that it doesn't change how I feel or view anyone personally.

I'm still me.

I still care about people regardless of what they believe.

I actually think I might be a little less condemning to you "christians" now that I'm no longer under your condemnation. One can only hope anyway. Very Happy

timberlandko wrote:

There is great comfort to be had in thinking OF religion. Actually thinking objectively, critically, logically, analytically, honestly ABOUT religion provides nowhere near so much convenience.

Agreed.

Green Witch wrote:

Very true Timber.

Arella and Raul, Hep. is looking for new answers. I know you mean well, but such a response is typical when a person doesn't want to be a member of your club anymore. Maybe she will eventually decide your answers are correct for her, or some other religion has the answers she seeks, or she will need to invent her own answers. It's her journey, let her explore the newness of it without the old dogma dogging her.

Thanks.

So... I'm thinking about changing my name. Any suggestions?

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Maybe something that relates to horses, something that makes you feel happy or confident. I'd stay away from the relgious monikers for now.

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Green Witch wrote:

Very true Timber.

Arella and Raul, Hep. is looking for new answers. I know you mean well, but such a response is typical when a person doesn't want to be a member of your club anymore. Maybe she will eventually decide your answers are correct for her, or some other religion has the answers she seeks, or she will need to invent her own answers. It's her journey, let her explore the newness of it without the old dogma dogging her.

Green Witch, I think you completely missed my point here. I was trying to tell Heph that I don't agree with what that woman said to her. Crying or Very sad

Heph knows me very well. She knows that I will not try to convince her one way or the other on this issue. She knows the facts. This is her decision and hers alone. :wink:

Quote:

I actually think I might be a little less condemning to you "christians" now that I'm no longer under your condemnation. One can only hope anyway.

You NEVER were under condemnation from me.

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Ok... here's what I've come up with:

Nektosha--- which is potawatomi for horse

tashunke--- which is Lakota for horse

I wish I could find out where my roots are. I know I have indian in my blood... hmm may have to do a little research here... Mr. Green

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Heph, I'm just glad you sound like you feel good about the direction you're moving in.

My grandmother just passed away recently, which led me to be spending some time thinking about the big things (sigh) and while trying to deal with it, I read an article in Time about true faith, which I found very interesting and comforting. I personally find it unlikely that there is a god, but I don't rule it out entirely-- I'd certainly like it if there was some sort of benevolent spirit out there. Anyway, I found that this article beautifully expressed how faith ought to be, and made me feel good about things in general-- thought you might like it too. Here it is.

Have fun picking out a new screen name-- I'm with Greenwitch, something horsey seems right! Smile

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Excellent article Cypher.

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Oh, glad you liked it, GW. Sort of made me look at Andrew Sullivan with new eyes next time I saw him on a political show!

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I understand your frustration, everyone thinks they are on the right path but who are they to judge others? Live and let live. I just don't want you to turn your back on God. But anyways true faith is from the heart, and God guides who he wills.

Good luck.

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Hep wrote:

"I just feel hmmmm...

Free from others expectations.

Free from trying to be something I'm not. . ."

We can't choose what we believe. Not really. Sure, you could go on trying to convince yourself that something makes sense to you, but wouldn't that be like lying to God (if you believe in God, that is)? That can't be good! Anyway, "God" is supposed to love us for who we are, not who we pretend to be. (or so the story goes)

So, if you believe. . . then you believe.

If you don't. . . well, who are you trying to hide it from?

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Whistling in the graveyard...

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