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The Iraq dilemma that both Reps and Dems are shirking

 
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 10:53 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 01:32 pm
Well, well, well...maybe Bob is going to redeem himself finally.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 02:52 pm
Re: The Iraq dilemma that both Reps and Dems are shirking
joefromchicago wrote:
Quote:


<snip>

Thus, the report highlights the essential dilemma Iraq poses for the war on terror: staying fuels the al-Qaeda-inspired movement, creating a net increase in the terrorist threat; while leaving Iraq in chaos would also worsen the threat.

The Democrats tend to focus on the first part of the dilemma; the administration focuses on the second part. They are both right (and wrong) -- and the debate would be greatly served by focusing on the dilemma itself."

The solution to this dilemma is actually quite simple. We must abandon this Quixotic attempt at establishing democracy in Iraq and set up a dictator to run the country. Preferably, he should be a pro-US dictator, of the Shah of Iran or Pervez Musharraf type, but in any event he should be a dictator.

After all, the thing that is keeping American troops in Iraq is not the war on terrorism, it is the futile quest to transform Iraq into a western-style democracy. If the US valued the establishment of order over the establishment of democratic institutions, the troops could withdraw in a couple of weeks. All that is needed is the re-establishment of a dictatorship.


This is a salutary proposal. We should assure that said Dictator is Shi'ite, or can at least pay lip service to the Shi'ites convincingly. We should also assure some sort of autonomy for the Kurds--unlike the Sunnis, if the Kurds go to the mattresses, you're going to have a real war on your hands.

If a true "western style democracy" were effected in Iraq, the government would inevitably be a Shi'ite government. Short of re-installing the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party, a Shi'ite Dictator is the only pragmatic solution.

That's what i like about you, Joe--you're always thinkin' . . .
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:24 am
An update:
    If you want to know what conservatives are thinking in the administration, it's always a good idea to check out The Washington Times. Yesterday was no exception: in a provocative article designed to boost the hopes of those seeking a change of direction in Iraq (and, perhaps, GOP chances at the polls), the paper reported about James Baker's "Plan B" study group: Leaks from a U.S. task force headed by former Secretary of State James A. Baker III are contributing to the widespread sense that the Bush administration is preparing for a "course correction" in the coming months. The options cited most frequently in Washington include the partition of Iraq into three ethnic- or faith-based regions, and a phased withdrawal of U.S. troops, with some remaining in neighboring countries to deal with major threats. [Note to Huffington readers: When Democrats propose these ideas, they're called "cut and run."] [i]Another scenario is being discussed -- and taken seriously in Iraq -- by many of Iraq's leading political players, under which the U.S.-trained army would overthrow struggling Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and replace him with a strongman who would restore order while Washington looks the other way [/i](emphasis added). Who could such a strongman be? Saddam's tied up in a trial for his life, but it seems his ability to hold down ethnic violence while in power is looking like an appealing role model for a future leader of Iraq. It's not quite bringing democracy to the Iraqi people, but maybe he'll get the trains -- or the electricity -- to run on time.
Link.

It appears, then, that the idea of installing a military dictator is gradually becoming more acceptable.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:56 am
Boy, that's gonna piss off Saddam.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 07:21 pm
With all this talk of a "surge", the OP of this thread appears to have become topical again.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 04:15 pm
The New Republic published an evaluation of the "Surge", signed by "The Editors" (plural, which is something, considering they hardly agree about anything).

I agree - both with the parts that are uncomfortable for the Republicans, and with the parts that are uncomfortable for the Democrats (ie, the two paragraphs that precede the last one).

Quote:
Funeral Surge

by the Editors
Post date 02.01.07 | Issue date 02.12.07

When George W. Bush set out to sell his surge, he never imagined that he would need to convince the plan's intellectual authors of its wisdom. But, a week after Bush delivered his State of the Union address, the American Enterprise Institute's Frederick Kagan began furiously distancing himself from the escalation. "This is not our plan," he told Salon. His writing partner, former Army Vice Chief of Staff Jack Keane, informed the Senate Armed Services Committee, "t makes no sense to me."

It's not just the president's wonk base that has fled. Republican senators have begun looking more like the defeated Republican Guard, melting into the Democratic opposition. Bush's prime-time defense of his escalation policy was followed by five new Republican draft resolutions opposing it.

So who in Washington actually believes this surge will work? Apparently, the one man who still believes in Mission Accomplished. We speak, of course, of Dick Cheney. A day after the State of the Union, he sat down with CNN's Wolf Blitzer for a remarkably feisty interview. When Blitzer mentioned the broad consensus that the administration had bungled its Iraq policy, the vice president dismissed such talk as "hogwash." In fact, he said, "Bottom line is that we've had enormous successes, and we will continue to have enormous successes." He denied that Iraq was a "terrible situation." [..]

This isn't spin applied to make the best of a bad situation. Cheney has repeated his optimistic take on Iraq so often that you can't doubt his belief in it. And, therefore, he properly qualifies as a delusional individual. Now, Cheney may or may not be the most influential man in the White House these days. But his assumptions about Iraq continue to hold sway. Despite their plans for an escalation, administration officials fail to grasp the scale of our problem in Iraq--or its urgency. There's a reason why the plan has virtually no defenders outside the president's chain of command.

For the last week, Cheney and Bush have defended the plan by placing the onus on its critics. "Those who refuse to give this plan a chance to work have an obligation to offer an alternative that has a better chance for success," Bush has argued. This is, to borrow Cheney's phrase, hogwash.

But, OK, here's an alternative: Stop making things worse. It's now clear that the Maliki government is not going to unify the country; it's interested in U.S. participation only to the extent that it can turn our Armed Forces into an instrument of sectarian warfare. Our military must get out of the business of helping Shia death squads--a business in which the surge will only implicate us more deeply.

Does this mean we have no further military role in Iraq? No, it does not. We have a strong interest in staying to fight Al Qaeda, and we have a powerful responsibility to mitigate ethnic slaughter and protect Iraqi refugees as the civil war deepens.

There is, for that reason, something unsettling about Democratic rhetoric at this juncture. While the vast bulk of the Democrats' proposals are reasonable--benchmarks for the Iraqi government, a renewed focus on battling Al Qaeda--some of their speechifying is less than appealing. Hillary Clinton says she "resents" that Bush's successor will inherit his mess; Barack Obama talks about letting Iraqis tackle their own problems; every other presidential candidate decries the continued Iraqi dependency on the United States.

They may be right to disdain Bush and his war. But they are also evading America's moral responsibility for the fate of the country we invaded. We set events in motion, and now there are ethnic groups that depend on our protection from catastrophes that will follow our withdrawal. Some of these catastrophes may be inevitable. But that doesn't justify throwing up our hands--or rhetoric that raises public expectations of an easy and guilt-free withdrawal.

The current swirl of binding and nonbinding congressional resolutions is hardly satisfying. But this glut of legislation was born of desperation. The Bush administration continues to push ahead on its course in spite of public opinion, congressional consensus, and bloody reality. These resolutions may be the only vehicles for sending a message to the obstreperous bunch in the White House. And, even when the surge happens, these resolutions could help lay important political groundwork for foisting a new strategy on the White House in the future. Sooner or later, even for Dick Cheney, reality must intrude.

the Editors
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:36 pm
nimh wrote:
The New Republic published an evaluation of the "Surge", signed by "The Editors" (plural, which is something, considering they hardly agree about anything).

The editors of The New Republic? I remember back when they last had some credibility. As I recall, it was shortly before they voiced their uncritical support for the invasion of Iraq.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Feb, 2007 06:47 pm
Yup, they went well wrong on that one.

Then again - back then I (fiercely) disagreed with them; this time, I agree with them.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 12:54 pm
nimh

Hope you don't mind if I drop this here...
Quote:
Gates Considers Alternatives for Iraq

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: February 7, 2007
Filed at 11:29 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Defense Secretary Robert Gates told a House panel Wednesday that the U.S. should know in a few months if the Iraqi government is making progress toward peace and whether the United States ''is going to have to look at other alternatives and consequences.''
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-US-Iraq.html

This policy "clarification" took a bit longer to rise to the surface than I'd expected. The hawk crowd would have quickly grasped that the direction of the PR campaign for the surge (and the opponents' response to it) was forwarding a notion that Bush's surge was the "last chance" re Iraq. That boxes them in, of course, both as regards military and political strategy. We'll see how quick the dems are to jump on the logic here... there's no apparent reason to give Bush's surge "a chance" if it will inevitably be followed by some new strategy to replace the failed surge strategy (and that list of predecessors).
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Feb, 2007 05:54 am
Quote:
Feb. 8, 2007 | Deep within the bowels of the Pentagon, policy planners are conducting secret meetings to discuss what to do in the worst-case scenario in Iraq about a year from today if and when President Bush's escalation of more than 20,000 troops fails, a participant in those discussions told me. None of those who are taking part in these exercises, shielded from the public view and the immediate scrutiny of the White House, believes that the so-called surge will succeed. On the contrary, everyone thinks it will not only fail to achieve its aims but also accelerate instability by providing a glaring example of U.S. incapacity and incompetence.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/02/08/gop_iraq/

nimh

You've posed the moral dilemma here regarding America's responsibility (some others too) for the aftermath of this attack on Iraq. Can US forces leave if there is a prospect of significant human suffering which follows upon their leaving? My notion to this point has been that they are morally obligated to not withdraw immediately on the assumption that suffering otherwise preventable would increase.

But I'm no longer sure that is an accurate way to conceive of the situation. It probably would be if the "coalition" forces were functioning in the mode and with the intentions/goals of a UN peacekeeping mission. But they aren't. They are there, it seems, for some mix of reasons associated with American military and political hegemony, feeding and expanding the corporate war machine, oil resources and support for Israel. Thus how they procede in the future will correspond to those intentions/dynamics rather than to some good-hearted desire to reduce suffering. Which makes your moral dilemma much tougher to think through.

The two pieces I've posted above point to an aspect of the problem. Gates has claimed in the last few days (first explicit statement I know of from this level) that the US has no intention of holding permanent bases in Iraq. There's good reason to suspect he's not being truthful. It's tough to get any certain handle on what the folks in the Pentagon are thinking and planning, how much philosophic discord there is there, and how all of that intersects with the political dynamics. Pretty clearly, one dearly-held notion is that any duplication of the "failure" of Vietnam is to be avoided at pretty much any cost. Hawks in an out of the Pentagon share this one.

So, as in the new sec def's statement from yesterday, we ought to predict that clear failure of this surge to achieve anything at all, even a temporary reduction in violence, will lead only to some newer strategy, heavily promoted with opponents derogated as "defeatists". And, as in Blumenthal's piece directly above, we probably ought to expect that the surge will fail.

What will/could/should happen if the Dems take the Presidency and retain control of both houses (and I think all three are likely)?

As a general matter, I don't consider the Dem party much less beholden to or less intertwined with the militarist/corporate dynamic. But it seems also true that this Bush administration now is pretty far away from anything like average or 'general'. These guys are extremists in the militarist and corporate-friendly direction (energy at the top of the list), plus ideologues as regards hegemony and, probably, Israel too (the Israeli lobby has deep and long-standing connection to the Dems also, to be fair. And there are real concerns as regards threats to Israel even while Israeli policies commonly make their own situation worse). Just dropping the war-mongering down several notches seems a hell of a fine idea, and pretty certain under dems.

Morally, what I think the Dems ought to do (and they ought to be clear and forthright about it) is to first extricate the entire mid-east mission from the ideology presently under-pinning it. Then, set to three or four specific goals: 1) resolution of the Palestinian issue, 2) effective and serious descrimination in rhetoric and admiinistrative structures between Iraq/Afghanistan and the threats from fundamentalist Islam, 3) as ugly as this is/seems, attention to maintenance of the flow of oil as a simple matter of world economies (with smart forward-looking alternative energy policies pushed with an energy comparable to Kennedy's drive to space), 4) forget any other considerations in Iraq other than minimizing suffering in the short and finally long terms. That is, if some general or Bill Kristol yells about emasculation of the military, offer to do whatever they wish so long as they wear a pink crinolin dress in public for the following year...to see if they are willing to share in the sacrifice. Likewise, any lobbyists from Northrupp.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 05:13 am
Quote:
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070213/1a_lede13.art.htm
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Feb, 2007 07:19 am
Not only has the Iraq war created more jihadist or anti-Americanism but has turned Iraqis children into beggars in the streets.


Child beggars proliferate in Baghdad

Quote:
"Every day when I go to work or pick up my sons from their schools, a child comes near my car asking for money. It is hard to ignore them as so many children are now in the streets begging for food and material help," said Ali Mussawi, president of the local NGO Keeping Children Alive (KCA).

"They speak and swear like adults, putting the name of Allah [God] in the middle of all their sentences. Sometimes, when their hunger is severe, you can see a child is seemingly not afraid to steal in order to eat," Mussawi added.

According to the NGO Coordination Committee in Iraq (NCCI), the deteriorating economic situation in Iraq is the main reason for the increase in the number of street children since the occupation of the country began in 2003. The next major contributor is the increase in the number of widows countrywide.

"The economic situation of the Iraqis is decreasing month after month. Lots of families are using their children to get additional income, which they can get through begging. There are also families who send their children to work," Cedric Turlan, information officer for the NCCI, said.

"In addition, with the increasing number of widows and orphans, and the terrible [security] situation, the families' needs have increased as has the number of street children.

"Of course, when children are not going to school anymore, there is nothing you can do to keep them off the streets. When children are in school, they are not in the street and teachers and educators can also have an impact on families," Turlan added.

There are several centres working with street children in Baghdad and the Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs, in conjunction with NGOs, is working to provide financial or social support to families so as to prevent them sending their children to work or beg.

"Unfortunately, with the current situation - I mean the difficulty of access and the security matter, and sometimes the lack of funds - these projects are very much reduced and have become very difficult to implement," Turlan said.

"Iraq has signed the conventions related to the rights of the children, but their implementation is also much reduced now, certainly because of insecurity. So the main concern is the future of Iraqi children in general: what will be their future?"


(The rest of the article at the link at top)

They are without hope of a better tomorrow so I imagine their future will be to join some kind of militia or jihad group.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Feb, 2007 07:58 am
Hi revel.

nimh...you still paying attention here or on vacation in some saucy european fleshpot?

There's a very illuminating "debate" which has just arisen in the US conservative community over the administration's negotiations/deal with North Korea. A component part of that community (WSJ editorial page, National Review, John Bolton, Elliot Abrams, so far) are seriously unhappy with Bush and the State Department. Why?

These folks are, of course, from the neoconservative corner, previously very powerful and influential in setting Bush administration foreign policy and now, apparently, much less influential because of the debacle in Iraq and crashing poll numbers/electoral chances for the Republican party. Kristol et al have long sought power and are clearly resisting the diminishment of their power. That, in part, accounts for their loud derogations of the recent Baker commission and this NK deal.

But I think there's another clear motive in here as well, which we get a good glimpse of in the following piece. I'll paste it entirely here and mark the significant statement in red...

Quote:
Conservatives Assail North Korea Accord
Deal Could Get Nation off Terrorism List

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 15, 2007; A01

The White House yesterday found itself fending off a conservative revolt over the North Korea nuclear deal, even scrambling to mollify one of its own top officials who expressed sharp disagreement with a provision that could spring Pyongyang from the list of countries that sponsor terrorism, U.S. officials said yesterday.

Elliott Abrams, a deputy national security adviser, fired off e-mails expressing bewilderment over the agreement and demanding to know why North Korea would not have to first prove it had stopped sponsoring terrorism before being rewarded with removal from the list, according to officials who reviewed the messages.

John R. Bolton, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, called the agreement -- in which North Korea would freeze its main nuclear facility in exchange for an initial supply of fuel oil -- "a bad deal" that violated principles that were closely held in the beginning of the Bush administration.

And the National Review, a conservative bastion, yesterday slammed the agreement as essentially the same one negotiated by President Bill Clinton in 1994 -- a charge the Bush administration rejects. "When exactly did Kim Jong Il become trustworthy?" the magazine's editors asked. The Wall Street Journal editorial page, normally a Bush supporter, also condemned the accord yesterday as "faith-based nonproliferation."

Bolton's comments, the barbs from conservative publications and the Abrams e-mails reflected deep concerns among conservatives that the agreement could turn out to be an important and troubling turning point. Current and former Bush officials said they fear that after six years they are losing control of foreign policy to more pragmatic forces. The shift, they said, has become especially apparent with the departure of Donald H. Rumsfeld, who as defense secretary was often seen as a counterweight to State.

More specifically, conservatives said, they worry that the administration's willingness to bend on North Korea does not bode well for hard-line policies toward Iran, the Palestinians or other issues. Indeed, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov yesterday called on the United States to demonstrate "the same flexibility, a sensible flexibility" toward Iran's nuclear program.

At a news conference yesterday, Bush appeared irritated by criticism from Bolton, once a leader of the administration's conservatives. When a reporter mentioned that Bolton, whom Bush championed, had called it a bad deal, Bush smiled ruefully. "I strongly disagree, strongly disagree with his assessment," Bush said.

Abrams, a legendary bureaucratic infighter and outspoken neoconservative, is responsible for policies aimed at promoting democracy overseas. Officials who reviewed his e-mails on the nuclear deal would not quote from them but described the messages because they agreed with the concerns and wanted to make public the depth of disagreement within the administration. They said Abrams appeared frustrated because so many key decisions had been made at the highest levels without much vetting by officials scattered across the government.

Abrams, they said, was especially concerned about a section of the agreement that stated: "The U.S. will begin the process of removing the designation of the DPRK as a state-sponsor of terrorism, and advance the process of terminating the application of the Trading with the Enemy Act with respect to the DPRK." DPRK is the abbreviation of North Korea's official name, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Countries that are on the U.S. terrorism list are subject to trade and other sanctions.

In an e-mail that Abrams sent to officials involved in Asia policy and nonproliferation policy, he reminded the recipients that, in a deal with Libya on abandoning weapons of mass destruction, the United States said it would start a "delisting" process only if Libya ended its support for terrorism -- and that the terrorism track was separate from the weapons deal.

When one of the Asia experts replied that the process was young, Abrams shot back that he thought that section of the deal was bad.

Gordon Johndroe, a National Security Council spokesman, did not dispute this account but said: "Initial press reports on the six-party-talks agreement sparked a discussion among staff that were seeking clarification of some of the deal's aspects. All has been clarified, and we look forward to implementation."

The provision that irritated Abrams has also sparked concern in Japan, which fears that the United States will remove North Korea from the terrorism list before North Korea has come clean on its kidnappings of Japanese citizens decades ago. Bush tried to mollify those concerns in a phone call yesterday with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. The State Department says North Korea has not committed a terrorist act since the 1987 bombing of a Korean Air Lines flight.

Bush defended the nuclear agreement as a "unique deal," in part because of his decision to bring in other nations, such as China.

"I changed the dynamic on the North Korean issue by convincing other people to be at the table with us on the theory that the best diplomacy is diplomacy in which there is more than one voice," Bush said.

Bolton later stood by his criticism. "I'm very sad about the president's change in policy," he said in an interview. "The policy as originally articulated and implemented in the first term was exactly right. There's no need to change it. The pressure was what brought North Korea to the table originally. Why get rid of the pressure?"

Asked if he felt disloyal to Bush, who stood by him through a long and ultimately unsuccessful Senate confirmation fight, Bolton said: "I didn't say anything for a good long time, and I wouldn't have said anything if they hadn't changed the policy. I'm loyal to the original policy."

Staff writer Peter Baker contributed to this report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/14/AR2007021401695_pf.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Mar, 2007 07:05 am
nimh

In reference to my earlier comments on the context of this war and this administration... this is a typically excellent piece by Greenwald...
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
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