A fair, safe way to close Guantánamo

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You don't believe that the United States is threatened today by any foreign State, or by radical Islamic terrorists operating without State sanction?

Our existence is not threatened, no. The greatest threat to America is probably North Korea at the moment, and even they aren't much of a threat.

The most terrorists could do is damage the US. They cannot destroy us, and it would be a titanic accomplishment for them even to significantly damage us; a feat that hasn't been accomplished by an outside force since Pearl Harbor.

Now, we face a much, much greater threat from our own government acting to remove Habeus Corpus from all people, including US citizens, as is currently happening right now. Terrorists cannot bring our country down, but they can convince the weak-willed quislings here in America to do it themselves.

Cycloptichorn

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Drew,

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The folks in Guantanamo can be separated into three groups: leaders, footsoldiers, and innocents.

Possibly, but how do propose separating the sheep from the goats? Both leaders and foot soldiers would constitute a threat if released. I've seen some here claim that a few hundred more combatants added to the 120,000 already in the field is negligible. Where does that 120,000 estimate come from? The number may be as small as 12,000, all estimates are only guesses when dealing with irregular partisans. In a time when fewer than 30 terrorists can bring down the World Trade Towers, releasing any of the leaders or foot soldiers would be a grave risk.

I have no doubt that some "innocents" have been captured and confined, but in the absence of any sure means to distinguish between those who would love to die killing Americans and those who just want to be left alone, we must hold them until the level of certainty is high.

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Guantanamo has become an albatross around our necks. Let's cut it loose

I'm sure that we would all love to close down the Guantanamo holding facility. How do you propose that we close the facility without releasing dangerous individuals who will promptly return to the attack?

These detainees are not soldiers who are readily identifiable and subject to any civil or military code. They have no compunction against lying, or murdering anyone if it will advance their effort to destroy the West. They kill their own people to further their own propaganda in the West, so why would they not join the effort to kill Americans? They aren't civilians, they tell us that they are soldiers of God and dying in fighting us will get them into heaven. How would you explain the the American People if just one of these "poor unfortunates" be implicated in an attack on the scale of 9/11? Will you be the first to step up to the mourner's bench and admit that you made the deaths of Americans possible?

Cyclopticron,

In every war there is constraint of civil liberties. There is ample precedent for suspending Habeas Corpus in the United States, and suspension of the Great Writ is enshrined in the Constitution. However, there has been no general suspension of Habeas Corpus in this country. Still, as responsible citizens we are aware and leery that necessary infringements on traditional liberties might someday become permanent. That's never happened in our past, and there is no good reason that I can see to suppose it will happen in the foreseeable future.

The DPRK is dangerous because they have nuclear capability and the government is wholly in the hands of a man whose mental and emotional stability are questionable. Kim Jung-Ill will threaten and attempt to use blackmail with little regard to the dangers or consequences. He can not, even with his longest range missiles reach beyond the West Coast of North America. However, he will soon be able to threaten the nuclear annihilation of Seattle, and San Francisco. The loss of those two cities wouldn't bring down the United States, but might precipitate a series of nuclear exchanges. Not even Austria was threatened with destruction by the assassination of the Arch-Duke, yet the result was WWI, WWII, and the Cold War.

Iran is a far more dangerous situation. Iran already has the capability of reaching most of the Middle East with missiles. The threat of Iranian blackmail of its neighbors already exists, and for them to be nuclear capable would even more destabilize an already volatile region. Iran sits astride the maritime routes which supply Europe and the rest of Asia, and might cut off the petroleum that the world depends upon. Iran is a sponsor of international terrorism, and provides volunteers and munitions used against the U.S. in Iraq and other places. Iran is outspoken in its goal to exterminate Israel, and subjugate the rest of the World to the dictates of its religious leaders. Iran is a far more dangerous threat to world peace than the DPRK.

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It is common to view war in the light of history; unfortunately, few truly understand history, bringing about the circumstance that the war for which most assume we should be prepared to win is the last war in which we were engaged. Precisely that thinking built the Maginot Line, and precisely that thinking currently obscures in the minds of many the realities of the war in which presently we are engaged.

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Amen. Folks have a tendency toward simplicity. All problems and solutions are regarded as simple and straight foreward. Not so in the real world where Kings and Captains must succeed or perish. Its a grey world out there, not black nor white either.

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Where does that 120,000 estimate come from? The number may be as small as 12,000.
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Similarly, retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey recently observed that although some prisoners from Guantánamo may go to Iraq or Afghanistan to fight US forces, they would merely "join the 120,000-plus fighters we now contend with in those places of combat."
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We better inform the simple general that he is way off the mark. Some people here know so much more.

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detano inipo wrote:

Where does that 120,000 estimate come from? The number may be as small as 12,000.
..........................................
Similarly, retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey recently observed that although some prisoners from Guantánamo may go to Iraq or Afghanistan to fight US forces, they would merely "join the 120,000-plus fighters we now contend with in those places of combat."
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We better inform the simple general that he is way off the mark. Some people here know so much more.

Straw man. The cite you offer references merely one individual's assertion of opinion - while there may or may not be fact behind that opinion, no empirical validation for that opinion is provided via anything you've provided. All you've done is present an opinion congruent with your own.

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No, we don't necessarily know more than the General. I asked for a citation, and you've given it. Thank you. That said, the General is guessing just like the rest of us. He has more data on which to make his guesses, and that certainly makes his guess better than mine.

Even if we accept a higher number of estimated opponents in the field, it does not negate the risks posed by releasing captured enemy combatants. Until these detainees are shown to pose no risk, they can live under the loving care of the USMC.

Wait a minute ... how about putting tracking devices on each released prisoner's ankle. The devices could be packed with a quarter pound of C4, and set to explode if tampered with. Then if the released "innocent" shows up anywhere close to an attack, or in the midst of an enemy conference we just push the button and help him into paradise.

Laughing

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However, there has been no general suspension of Habeas Corpus in this country. Still, as responsible citizens we are aware and leery that necessary infringements on traditional liberties might someday become permanent. That's never happened in our past, and there is no good reason that I can see to suppose it will happen in the foreseeable future.

Actually, it is being passed as we speak.

The torture bill being debated in Congress at this moment (which looks like will pass, due to Republican majorities in both houses) includes language suspending the writ of Habeus Corpus on anyone that the Executive branch deems an 'Enemy Combatant,' including American citizens. There is no Congressional oversight and no sunset for the bill.

You really should study up on it, seriously...

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Iran is a far more dangerous situation. Iran already has the capability of reaching most of the Middle East with missiles. The threat of Iranian blackmail of its neighbors already exists, and for them to be nuclear capable would even more destabilize an already volatile region. Iran sits astride the maritime routes which supply Europe and the rest of Asia, and might cut off the petroleum that the world depends upon. Iran is a sponsor of international terrorism, and provides volunteers and munitions used against the U.S. in Iraq and other places. Iran is outspoken in its goal to exterminate Israel, and subjugate the rest of the World to the dictates of its religious leaders. Iran is a far more dangerous threat to world peace than the DPRK.

The middle east isn't the US. Israel isn't the US. Iran is not a threat to the survival of the US in the slightest. This is merely hyperbole from you.

Just because other countries have the ability to make things tough on our preferred trade routes doesn't mean they threaten our survival. You guys sure seem to think that the US is a lot weaker than it is Confused

Cycloptichorn

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Wait a minute ... how about putting tracking devices on each released prisoner's ankle. The devices could be packed with a quarter pound of C4, and set to explode if tampered with. Then if the released "innocent" shows up anywhere close to an attack, or in the midst of an enemy conference we just push the button and help him into paradise.
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Why not just cut their kneecaps off, so they can't fight the endangered USA anymore.
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To make jokes about people who may have spent three years in a torture camp, and who might be totally innocent, is not very nice. If non-americans are open to cruel jokes we might as well admit that we are the new master race. From there to the Gestapo is only a short step.
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btw, nobody is more upset with terrorists than I am. That does not stop me from pointing out the atrocities that our side commits.

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A torture camp? Maybe for the brave service men guarding the prisoners, but certainly not for the prisoners. Quit believing the hype surrounding Gitmo.

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They're not brave. They're a bunch of unthinking young people who have been co-opted into the armed forces. Stop making these guys out to be more than they are. You and your kind don't give a rat's ass about the servicemen/women.

It's just another republican talking point; it sounds good, it distracts from the mess in Iraq and the mess everywhere else. You, like all of the other conservatives don't care when their benefits are cut, when the government allows usurious mercenaries to steal their shitty pay.

You don't give a damn that military families don't have enough money, that they are going into debt, that they're denied medical benefits. For you it's a use 'em and lose 'em. You're nothing but a bumper sticker hypocrite.

Stop being so lazy; get off your butt and get yourself down to the local recruiting center.

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Youth For Sale

by Arlene Inouye

I am an educator in the Los Angeles Unified School District. When the Iraq war was declared, I was deeply troubled by the relentless and aggressive military recruitment on our high school campuses.

...

Iraq for Sale is an important educational tool for high school students to make the connections between what they hear regarding Halliburton and privatization, and the military recruiting pitch of money for college, career opportunities, patriotism, etc. It powerfully shows how expendable human life is to those in power who profit from war. It also pierces through the lies told to our high school students by military recruiters and exposes abuses that they are not likely to hear about.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arlene-inouye/youth-for-sale_b_30506.html

"Iraq for Sale" movie trailer can be viewed at,

http://iraqforsale.org/

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"We would be better served in world affairs today by being less haughty and more humble.

I regret that my departure from Congress, like my arrival, finds our country at war. Young and even not-so-young Americans are sacrificing life and limb, while the rest of us are making little or no sacrifice."

http://thinkprogress.org/

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JTT wrote:

They're not brave.

The way the world works, no doubt some aren't brave. In any relatively large demographic some distribution of most character qualities is to be expected. There will be heroes and there will be cads.

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They're a bunch of unthinking young people who have been co-opted into the armed forces.

Broad brush is broad brush, and not only is that broad brush, it is counter to fact, demeaning to American youth, to the the military, and to the nation as a whole. It is an inexcusably ignorant thing to say, something which may be endorsed only via stupidity and/or malicious duplicity.

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Stop making these guys out to be more than they are.

Your irrational, rabidly hyperbolic ideologic blindness is showing.

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You and your kind don't give a rat's ass about the servicemen/women.

Bullshit; that too is a disgusting, counterfactual, rabidly partisan untruth. But at least you're consistent in what you say. Disgusting, but consistent.

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It's just another republican talking point; it sounds good, it distracts from the mess in Iraq and the mess everywhere else. You, like all of the other conservatives don't care when their benefits are cut, when the government allows usurious mercenaries to steal their shitty pay.

You don't give a damn that military families don't have enough money, that they are going into debt, that they're denied medical benefits. For you it's a use 'em and lose 'em. You're nothing but a bumper sticker hypocrite.

The typically vituperative pejoration you employ more than adequately establishes the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the agenda you press.

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Stop being so lazy; get off your butt and get yourself down to the local recruiting center.

I did - over 4 decades ago. So did my son, nearly 2 decades ago. So have others from among my circle of family and freinds, many of whom now are serving, some in harm's way. I'm proud of them, their commitment, and their bravery. In fact, I'm proud to be an American, and proud to be an American. I'm even proud America goes out of its way to see to it even those of viewpoint such as that you've expressed are free to be as assinine as they may find agreeable to themselves.

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This link is for JTT to read. After this little outburst of impolite insults, he can use a bit of truth. The US has behaved badly throughout its history and has created the image of a bully. It will be hard to erase.
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http://hnn.us/articles/4915.html

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Asherman wrote:

Drew,

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The folks in Guantanamo can be separated into three groups: leaders, footsoldiers, and innocents.

Possibly, but how do propose separating the sheep from the goats?

Both leaders and foot soldiers would constitute a threat if released. I've seen some here claim that a few hundred more combatants added to the 120,000 already in the field is negligible. Where does that 120,000 estimate come from? The number may be as small as 12,000, all estimates are only guesses when dealing with irregular partisans. In a time when fewer than 30 terrorists can bring down the World Trade Towers, releasing any of the leaders or foot soldiers would be a grave risk.

I have no doubt that some "innocents" have been captured and confined, but in the absence of any sure means to distinguish between those who would love to die killing Americans and those who just want to be left alone, we must hold them until the level of certainty is high.

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Guantanamo has become an albatross around our necks. Let's cut it loose

I'm sure that we would all love to close down the Guantanamo holding facility. How do you propose that we close the facility without releasing dangerous individuals who will promptly return to the attack?

These detainees are not soldiers who are readily identifiable and subject to any civil or military code. They have no compunction against lying, or murdering anyone if it will advance their effort to destroy the West. They kill their own people to further their own propaganda in the West, so why would they not join the effort to kill Americans? They aren't civilians, they tell us that they are soldiers of God and dying in fighting us will get them into heaven. How would you explain the the American People if just one of these "poor unfortunates" be implicated in an attack on the scale of 9/11? Will you be the first to step up to the mourner's bench and admit that you made the deaths of Americans possible?

So you're scared they might do harm, and are willing to hold them indefinitely. Why do you insist on repeating the same sentiment again and again?

The time when 30 men could take down the World Trade Center is over. They'd be swarmed by legitimate passengers conking 'em upside the head with digital cameras. Get a grip.

You feel safer with these folks detained in Gitmo... I'd feel safer if the airlines were required to keep passengers with their bags.

I've read that 450 detainees remain in Guantanamo, and that only a few are expected to face trial. The rest will be returned to their countries of origin. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/20/AR2006082000660.html

So risk now or risk later, while the enemy profits from our shame in the meantime.

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JTT: They're not brave.

Timber: The way the world works, no doubt some aren't brave. In any relatively large demographic some distribution of most character qualities is to be expected. There will be heroes and there will be cads.

JTT: The heroes are the few who refuse to deploy to Iraq, the remainder, participants in an illegal invasion and the murder of thousands of Iraqis.

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They're a bunch of unthinking young people who have been co-opted into the armed forces.

Timber: Broad brush is broad brush, and not only is that broad brush, it is counter to fact, demeaning to American youth, to the the military, and to the nation as a whole. It is an inexcusably ignorant thing to say, something which may be endorsed only via stupidity and/or malicious duplicity.

JTT: Stop sputtering, Timber and face the facts. Recruiters lie and cheat just as their government lies and cheats.

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You and your kind don't give a rat's ass about the servicemen/women.

Timber: Bullshit; that too is a disgusting, counterfactual, rabidly partisan untruth. But at least you're consistent in what you say. Disgusting, but consistent.

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It's just another republican talking point; it sounds good, it distracts from the mess in Iraq and the mess everywhere else. You, like all of the other conservatives don't care when their benefits are cut, when the government allows usurious mercenaries to steal their shitty pay.

You don't give a damn that military families don't have enough money, that they are going into debt, that they're denied medical benefits. For you it's a use 'em and lose 'em. You're nothing but a bumper sticker hypocrite.

Timber: The typically vituperative pejoration you employ more than adequately establishes the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the agenda you press.

JTT: You're likely one of the better ones, Timber. How many times have you written your congressperson/senator to decry the mean ways that the Bush administration deals with its cast off soldiers. Use 'em then lose 'em; that's their motto.

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Stop being so lazy; get off your butt and get yourself down to the local recruiting center.

Timber: I did - over 4 decades ago. So did my son, nearly 2 decades ago. So have others from among my circle of family and freinds, many of whom now are serving, some in harm's way. I'm proud of them, their commitment, and their bravery. In fact, I'm proud to be an American, and proud to be an American. I'm even proud America goes out of its way to see to it even those of viewpoint such as that you've expressed are free to be as assinine as they may find agreeable to themselves.

JTT: It was hardly my intention for you to volunteer, Timber. Why not get some of these gun happy conservative nutcases to go down to their local recruiting center.

Your "patriotism" blinds you to the enormous wrongs committed by your country. There's nothing noble about the Iraq invasion, the secret prisons, the torture, Guantanamo, ... .

What's so telling is that there's never ANY remorse expressed by you and the cons around here, or out in the general public over the death and destruction that you've inflicted upon Iraq and its people.

All you've done here is try to shoot the messenger, turn inward, put up this childish demeanor, my country right or wrong, and keep trying to shoot the messenger.

You missed every time. Now address the facts.

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JTT,

IMO the military has done a marvelous job of turning itself around after the problems it encountered in the 1960s. Military service provides a route out of poverty, out of gangs, and a route to education for many of America's youth.

The military has been misused in this current conflict; honorably, however, the soldiers are following the orders of the civilian leadership.

I suggest you rethink some of your ideas.

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This is a long article about conditions in Afghanistan. If you are really interested in the behaviour of Westerners in that poor country, please read it. The waste and the arrogance of the foreigners is shameful.
The very poor locals see it all and draw their own conclusions.
To win the hearts and minds of the Afghanis the occupiers should do exactly the opposite.
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http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,440017,00.html

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A fair, safe way to close Guantánamo

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