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Is Fraternity Hazing Torture covered by Geneva Conventions?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 02:39 pm
Thanks, Joe!
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 02:49 pm
Re: Is Fraternity Hazing Torture covered by Geneva Conventio
okie wrote:
http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060910/NEWS/609100463/1039

I am just curious, is hazing torture covered by the Geneva Conventions? We need to ask John McCain to see what he thinks. Where are the calls for Kappa Alpha Psi to be shut down at Florida A&M and the students transferred to some other compound?

It is very "troubling" that this incident is not the first time this has happened. It seems to be a "pattern of abuse." Something needs to be done, perhaps legislation calling for the end of fraternities, as such organizations foster a "culture of torture and abuse."


I suspect the US has internal laws that might cover these internal matters.

You DO have laws and courts and such, do you not?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 03:59 pm
Re: Is Fraternity Hazing Torture covered by Geneva Conventio
dlowan wrote:
You DO have laws and courts and such, do you not?


I"m certain, but i believe so . . . i'll check and get back to you.

One thing, though, is certain--Okie is not the person of whom to inquire on a matter such as that . . . he's too busy with humanitarian activitism, anyway . . .
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 04:15 pm
Laws and courts in Okladamnhoma (except of course in Eva's hood) are comprised of a couple of guys on sat night with a fifth of whisky and a rope.
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NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 04:20 pm
I've only been to Oklafukinhoma in passing. Found no reason to stop there for long.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 04:26 pm
Breaking the law is apparently fine... as long as you're not an illegal.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 06:33 pm
Hmmmm..... Where's the outrage I expected over this. After all, innocent kids have died without due process or being able to exercise their rights to be heard concerning this barbaric practice of hazing. But no, all I see here is a ho-hum attitude, that there are laws covering this, lets go onto something else, after all just okie with another useless thread. I would like to see people wanting to get to the bottom of this. Who authorizes this practice of abuse and who started it? I got this from the link I posted at the start:

"University hazing dates to at least the 15th century, when students in Germany forced freshmen to do menial tasks like carrying older students' books and pens, according to Walter Kimbrough, an expert in fraternity and sorority histories."

Has anyone asked the Germans about this? It is becoming more apparent to me that this could be an international problem? Perhaps there is cause to bring this to the attention of the U.N. and maybe get a resolution and bring it to a vote before the international community? Perhaps something could finally be done about this terrible and barbaric practice.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:10 pm
okie wrote:
Has anyone asked the Germans about this?


Why, do you have any reason to believe this is common in Germany today?

Quote:
It is becoming more apparent to me that this could be an international problem?


Are you asking a question or making a statement--it's kind of hard to tell.

Quote:
Perhaps there is cause to bring this to the attention of the U.N. and maybe get a resolution and bring it to a vote before the international community? Perhaps something could finally be done about this terrible and barbaric practice.


Perhaps, but there are more important things for people to worry about than a propensity for college students to act illegally on a small scale. Such as governments (like ours) which act illegally on a large scale, lie to cover their tracks, and flout the solemn diplomatic engagements undertaken by the United States.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:19 pm
Re: Is Fraternity Hazing Torture covered by Geneva Conventio

Considering that Okie is touting how even frat students are put on trial if they abuse someone this way, you would have thought that he would easily accept that if US soldiers do the same or worse, they should definitely be taken to court.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 07:23 pm
Re: Is Fraternity Hazing Torture covered by Geneva Conventio
nimh wrote:

Considering that Okie is touting how even frat students are put on trial if they abuse someone this way, you would have thought that he would easily accept that if US soldiers do the same or worse, they should definitely be taken to court.


nah.


they aren't americans.

the victims of us torture/assault etc I mean, not the soldiers.
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Sep, 2006 08:58 pm
Setanta wrote:

Perhaps, but there are more important things for people to worry about than a propensity for college students to act illegally on a small scale. Such as governments (like ours) which act illegally on a large scale, lie to cover their tracks, and flout the solemn diplomatic engagements undertaken by the United States.


Thanks to Setanta and other libs here you have confirmed what everybody knows already. You have more compassion for terrorists at Gitmo and care more about them than you do innocent people, all because of your political agenda. I have illustrated absurdity, the liberal agenda concerning so-called "torture," with my absurd thread. Some of you didn't even figure out what the thread was designed to do.

Some things described as torture at Gitmo pales in comparison to some of the things that have happened with hazing.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 01:09 am
okie wrote:
Setanta wrote:

Perhaps, but there are more important things for people to worry about than a propensity for college students to act illegally on a small scale. Such as governments (like ours) which act illegally on a large scale, lie to cover their tracks, and flout the solemn diplomatic engagements undertaken by the United States.


Thanks to Setanta and other libs here you have confirmed what everybody knows already. You have more compassion for terrorists at Gitmo and care more about them than you do innocent people, all because of your political agenda. I have illustrated absurdity, the liberal agenda concerning so-called "torture," with my absurd thread. Some of you didn't even figure out what the thread was designed to do.

Some things described as torture at Gitmo pales in comparison to some of the things that have happened with hazing.





Are you really this stupid?


Frankly it's scary.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 01:29 am
okie wrote:
Setanta wrote:

Perhaps, but there are more important things for people to worry about than a propensity for college students to act illegally on a small scale. Such as governments (like ours) which act illegally on a large scale, lie to cover their tracks, and flout the solemn diplomatic engagements undertaken by the United States.


Thanks to Setanta and other libs here you have confirmed what everybody knows already. You have more compassion for terrorists at Gitmo and care more about them than you do innocent people, all because of your political agenda. I have illustrated absurdity, the liberal agenda concerning so-called "torture," with my absurd thread. Some of you didn't even figure out what the thread was designed to do.

Some things described as torture at Gitmo pales in comparison to some of the things that have happened with hazing.


1. How do you know the inmates at Gitmo are actually terrorists?

There's the quite recent case of Murat Kurnaz. He was detained at Guantanamo for four years. Now it turned out that he just happened to be "in the wrong place at the wrong time" (he was picked up in Pakistan by the police during a routine control, then for some reason turned over to the US army).
(-> Learning to Walk without Chains)


2. The sentence for "some of the things that have happened with hazing" seems to be up to three years in jail. If you're okay with calling "interrogation short of organ failure" nothing more than hazing, I'd like to see the interrogaters go to jail for the same amount of time. The sad thing is that this is not what happens.

You might (or might not) remember the case where, in late 2002, two Afghans were detained at Bagram in Afghanistan. The detainees were a 22-year-old taxi driver named Dilawar and a 30-year-old named Mullah Habibullah. They where picked up at the site of a terrorist attack. However, they had nothing to do with the attack, just were "in the wrong place at the wrong time".
They were chained to the ceiling in standing positions. Over a five-day period, these two men were repeatedly beaten and died slow, excruciating deaths. An autopsy performed on Dilawar showed that his legs were destroyed and that amputation would have been necessary. Habibullah died of a pulmonary embolism caused by blood clots formed in the legs from the beatings.
Of the 28 soldiers participating in the abuse of the prisoners, only four were punished. One soldier has been sentenced to two months in prison, another to three months. A third was demoted and given a letter of reprimand and a fine. A fourth was given a reduction in rank and pay.
(-> Afghan Abuse Punishments Knocked)


Just two stories, okie. Read them, then come back and tell me again that all Gitmo detainees are terrorists, that torture doesn't happen or that those who were caught torturing actually got sentenced accordingly.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 04:21 am
old europe wrote:
Just two stories, okie. Read them, then come back

Dont hold your breath on either..
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 04:39 am
This is the same rightwing radio ploy tried when the Abu Ghraib prison photos came out, Rush and O'Reilly making out like these activities were just hyjinks caught on tape.

Hazing is a voluntary process one elects to participate in. Hmmm. So far no connection to imprisonment. A failure to make it through a session (one day, three days, whatever) of hazing will not result in your death, just your inability to use the local frat house's hot tub. It will be embarrassing to have to say that you didn't complete your pledge but you more than likely will not have lost the use of either hand or leg.

To equate hazing to torture is to believe that burning your finger tips when putting out a candle is the same as being punched in the kidneys until blood flows out of your anus and down your legs.

Joe(there is a difference in the tone of the screams)Nation
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 04:53 am
joefromchicago wrote:
If the hazing occurred in Illinois, it would be illegal under the Illinois Anti-Hazing Act, 720 ILCS 120/5

joefromchicago wrote:
Different states have different classifications for offenses. In Illinois, a class 4 felony is punishable by 1-3 years in prison. It is, therefore, the lowest level of felony. A class A misdemeanor is punishable by up to one year in prison, so that's the worst type of misdemeanor.

While I regret that Okie ignores the difference between state law and international law, I do consider hazing an offense comparable to some of the practices at Gutantanamo Bay. One to three years in prison does seem like a reasonable punishment for soldiers who waterboard. At the least, it would greatly improve on current legislation, under which the worst punishment is a pat on the shoulder from president Bush.

Of course, state laws about assault and battery would make for even better analogies.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 05:59 am
Joe Nation wrote:
This is the same rightwing radio ploy tried when the Abu Ghraib prison photos came out, Rush and O'Reilly making out like these activities were just hyjinks caught on tape.

Hazing is a voluntary process one elects to participate in. Hmmm. So far no connection to imprisonment. A failure to make it through a session (one day, three days, whatever) of hazing will not result in your death, just your inability to use the local frat house's hot tub. It will be embarrassing to have to say that you didn't complete your pledge but you more than likely will not have lost the use of either hand or leg.

To equate hazing to torture is to believe that burning your finger tips when putting out a candle is the same as being punched in the kidneys until blood flows out of your anus and down your legs.

Joe(there is a difference in the tone of the screams)Nation


I do not think hazing is necessarily more benign...nor is participation in it always voluntary...


For example, "hazing" in the Australian military has certainly been found to be criminal in nature at times, and seems to persist despite stated "brass" intentions to curtail it.

The point is more basic, I think...which is that the Geneva conventions are designed to operate in a particular sphere and situation, so Okie's whole premise is simply stupid and dishonest. So what else is new?


If "hazing' turns into torture and abuse in universities, the military etc., presumably there are laws within western democracies that exist to address it, however imperfectly.

However, while many victims of it are rendered relatively powerless by their desire to remain in whatever organization is allowing it, (a number of Australian trainee soldiers are known to have killed themselves because of it) their situation cannot compare with that of utterly helpless prisoners being abused...(another example of Okie's stupidity or dishonesty)....

Just as one example, military trainees and university students are not cut off from all communication with the outside world and deliberately denied recourse to any law or appeal.

Nobody, despite Okie's silly claims, is denying the seriousness of acts of abuse and torture committed by people other than allied soldiers against prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, and in formerly secret prisons in other countries.

I have no idea how often hazing in American universities reaches such levels, seldom, I would hope...but certainly the original intent of the right in comparing Abu Ghraib with such behaviour was to attempt to deny the seriousness of the abuse at American hands, and to ridicule the very proper and fully justified concerns of those who condemned it.


It is therefore quite amusing to see such as Okie now attempting, very unsuccessfully, to use the right's callous and dishonest tactics in such a way.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 08:16 am
okie wrote:
Thanks to Setanta and other libs here you have confirmed what everybody knows already. You have more compassion for terrorists at Gitmo and care more about them than you do innocent people, all because of your political agenda. I have illustrated absurdity, the liberal agenda concerning so-called "torture," with my absurd thread. Some of you didn't even figure out what the thread was designed to do.

Some things described as torture at Gitmo pales in comparison to some of the things that have happened with hazing.

Well, let's see. Hazing is:
    done by non-state actors for limited periods of time using generally non-lethal means to individuals who are more-or-less volunteers

In contrast, torture, as practiced at Guantanamo, is:
    done by state actors for unlimited periods of time using means that are designed to incur pain and are potentially lethal to individuals who may or may not be guilty of any crime

Comparing the two, then, is like comparing apples and bicycles. I will agree with okie on one thing, though: it certainly is an absurdity.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 09:04 am
Perhaps Okie was confused by the fact that if you put an apple on a steep slope, and stand a bicycle next to it, both will roll downhill . . . at least until the bicycle falls over, as does what passes for logic at Okie's house . . .
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Sep, 2006 09:06 am
Setanta wrote:
Perhaps Okie was confused by the fact that if you put an apple on a steep slope, and stand a bicycle next to it, both will roll downhill . . . at least until the bicycle falls over, as does what passes for logic at Okie's house . . .



So...Okie thinks apples and bicycles are the same?


Gives the Adam's apple a whole new set of wheels....
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