Hate is a Four-Letter Family Value

JPB wrote:

Can a soldier whose job it is to be prepared to kill be a Christian?

"By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves"(John 13:35)

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How do you apply your theory to the American Civil War, xingu? Where brother was fighting brother.

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Ah, the American Civil War--wherein salutary examples of christian love abound.

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For the record, I have no issue with christians being in the military or being policemen. I also have no issue with anyone who calls themselves a christian by following the tenets of what they believe that to mean. I have no issue with liberal christians or conservative christians. What I DO have an issue with is a christian who claims that others who call themselves christians are wrong and believe they have the moral authority to sit in judgement of anyone else's christian beliefs.

real, I was attempting to answer your post when my system crashed and all was lost ~ divine intervention perhaps? Let me answer by saying I have no conflict with a humanist who claims to be a christian, but I do not label myself a humanist, nor do I claim to be a "true christian", whatever that is. My copy of the gospels, re-translated from the earliest available documents by biblical scholars, differ from yours. The detail of those differences was what went into the abyss when my system crashed and I don't have the time or inclination to recreate it at the moment.

I'm still awaiting Kate's answer to the question of 'true christians' being solders.

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It is a struggle, for some, when they want to obey the laws of the land and do not want to transgress the laws of God.

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JPB

Quote:

For the record, I have no issue with christians being in the military or being policemen. I also have no issue with anyone who calls themselves a christian by following the tenets of what they believe that to mean. I have no issue with liberal christians or conservative christians. What I DO have an issue with is a christian who claims that others who call themselves christians are wrong and believe they have the moral authority to sit in judgement of anyone else's christian beliefs.

First off jpb i am not not sitting in judgement of others beliefs as a christians......Im not discussing doctorines etc......I am not condemning the various sects of christianity that may or may not believe all i do...I was defending christianity to those that were condemning US for a few that torture hate and murder.......You have shown that you havent really read any of my posts from the beginning.....You obviously want to see something in what i say that isnt there........As a christian i have the right to defend my religion from people who lump us with all the koreshs and rudolphs.......THe only ppl in this thread i have said can't be christian are those that hate and murder.....You have a problem with me judging their christian beliefs then honestly i dont care ....lol........ But they arent christian and its wrong for ppl to judge all of us by a few(which has been my pt the whole time) Yet for some reason you would rather misconstrue what i have wrote to take offense with........not those writings of those that judge millions by a few.....Ironic

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And JPB the commandment says "thou shalt not commit murder"

God gave this commandment to the Israelites and even many times sent them to war to kill .......Obviously he saw a difference and so do I.......a soldier defending himself in war is not committing murder.......

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Kate,

I would call this command murder.

Numbers 31:

Quote:

17. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

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mesquite that was the old testament and that was God calling the israelites to do that.....I m not an israelite nor do i live under the law....I honestly dont know why God commanded them to kill those people...IM not God and dont know all his ways.....But i do know that Christ told us to love everyone.....but i guess i can say that over and over again and some of you will believe what you want and judge us no matter what......which is sad............

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er, no Kate, you said hate, kill, and murder. Now you've dropped the word kill. Nice try, doesn't wash.

I didn't mention the Commandments, snood did. I'm not talking about what God did or didn't say to Moses. I'm talking about Jesus, the pacifist, who by your own words taught his followers to love everyone. In fact, he admonished them to turn the other cheek when struck. How do you reconcile your definition of being a true christian as one who follows the teachings of Jesus to those who participate in the killing of others?

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But anyone who does not love does not know God--for God is love. God showed how much he loved us by sending his only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. This is real love. It is not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins. ~ 1 John 4:8-10

But if a person isn't loving and kind, it shows that he doesn't know God--for God is love. ~ ` John 4:18

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. ~ 1 Corinthians 13:4-8

In none of those verses do I find we are to hate anyone for anything. We hate the sin and not the sinner. We are no longer under The Law, as Kate4christ has stated. For every verse in the Old Testament about hate one can be found for love in both the Old and New Testaments. If you don't understand the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament then I doubt you will understand this issue.

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Hey, AM, how are you? I don't know if that post was in reference to my last question to Kate, but it has nothing to do with what I'm asking.

Good to see you, AM. I hope you are well.

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Intrepid wrote:

How do you apply your theory to the American Civil War, xingu? Where brother was fighting brother.

Each saw the other as being, or at least accusing the other, of being atheistic. The South used the Bible as justification for their "particular institution". God of the Bible does approve of slavery. The North used religion to show that slavery was inhuman. Both sides saw each other as traitors.

The American Civil War was quite humane if you compare it to the wars of the twentieth century. Civilians, especially women, were, for the most part, treated with respect or at least tolerance. There were no bombings of civilian areas with the intent of killing large numbers of the civilian population as in WW II. And there was nothing like the terrorism that is currently being practiced by Israel and the Muslims fighting them. The only exception I can think of were the guerrilla wars fought in the Appalachians and in the Kansas-Missouri theater. Even the guerrilla warfare conducted by Col. Mosby was quite humane if you compare it to the warfare being conducted in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Americans in the Civil War did not see the enemy in the same light the Israelis and Muslims see each other. Many of the generals that fought each other were friends prior the the war. They served together in the west and the Mexican War. There was a bond between the two that prevented this war from getting out of hand and degrading into the type of conflicts we have today.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

mesquite that was the old testament and that was God calling the israelites to do that.....I m not an israelite nor do i live under the law....I honestly dont know why God commanded them to kill those people...IM not God and dont know all his ways.....But i do know that Christ told us to love everyone.....but i guess i can say that over and over again and some of you will believe what you want and judge us no matter what......which is sad............

By your belief Christ and God are one in the same. Therefore the God of the OT was Christ and Christ did order the slaughter of hapless victims.

I might also point out the Book of Revelation is in the NT. God is as much a butcher there as in the OT.

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JPB wrote:

Hey, AM, how are you? I don't know if that post was in reference to my last question to Kate, but it has nothing to do with what I'm asking.

Good to see you, AM. I hope you are well.

Doing good JPB. I guess I should have clarified my post. I wasn't actually referring to anyone's post in particular. Sorry for not making that clear.

I hope you are well also? It's been awhile.

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xingu wrote:

kate4christ03 wrote:
mesquite that was the old testament and that was God calling the israelites to do that.....I m not an israelite nor do i live under the law....I honestly dont know why God commanded them to kill those people...IM not God and dont know all his ways.....But i do know that Christ told us to love everyone.....but i guess i can say that over and over again and some of you will believe what you want and judge us no matter what......which is sad............

By your belief Christ and God are one in the same. Therefore the God of the OT was Christ and Christ did order the slaughter of hapless victims.

I might also point out the Book of Revelation is in the NT. God is as much a butcher there as in the OT.

Let me repeat myself, if you do not understand the transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament I highly doubt you will understand this issue.

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xingu wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
How do you apply your theory to the American Civil War, xingu? Where brother was fighting brother.

Each saw the other as being, or at least accusing the other, of being atheistic. The South used the Bible as justification for their "particular institution". God of the Bible does approve of slavery. The North used religion to show that slavery was inhuman. Both sides saw each other as traitors.

The American Civil War was quite humane if you compare it to the wars of the twentieth century. Civilians, especially women, were, for the most part, treated with respect or at least tolerance. There were no bombings of civilian areas with the intent of killing large numbers of the civilian population as in WW II. And there was nothing like the terrorism that is currently being practiced by Israel and the Muslims fighting them. The only exception I can think of were the guerrilla wars fought in the Appalachians and in the Kansas-Missouri theater. Even the guerrilla warfare conducted by Col. Mosby was quite humane if you compare it to the warfare being conducted in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Americans in the Civil War did not see the enemy in the same light the Israelis and Muslims see each other. Many of the generals that fought each other were friends prior the the war. They served together in the west and the Mexican War. There was a bond between the two that prevented this war from getting out of hand and degrading into the type of conflicts we have today.

Are you serious? Did you read what you wrote? You have now changed the topic to humane? You now compare the wars of today and yesterday? What does that have to do with what was being asked? Do you have facts and proof of the atheism accusations that you say were going on?

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JPB when i said "hate torture kill" i was using kill in the context of those that were first discussed at the beginning of this thread ...that believe that we are justified to kill (murder) those that believe differently .......ie rudolph blowing up the abortion clinic and killing a security guard....or the rcc killing ppl who didnt believe as they did during the inquisition......i was meaning that when i said kill....sorry for the misunderstanding....I wasn't meaning a soldier defending himself having to kill ........from now on i will state murder not kill so that noone will be confused.........Christ taught that we are to love everyone and not murder etc.......but i dont see how that means a soldier cant be a christian........Christ did say turn the other cheek and bless those that persecute you but he also instructed his own disciples to carry swords when they traveled out in the world as protection against ppl who may want to hurt them..........so you can either see those verses as a contradiction (which i dont) or use common sense and discernment to see that Christ was saying there are times when we need to turn away from those that persecute us....ie you come to me and cuss me out...( i should just walk away and not fight with you) and times when he is ok with us defending ourselves..(ie a man breaks into my house with the intent to rape and kill, i am justified in defending myself and my family)........

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Intrepid wrote:

Do you have facts and proof of the atheism accusations that you say were going on?

I go along with that one, that was from way out in left field. Both sides claimed to have god on their side, but i know of no claims made by either side that the other side were atheists. (I do consider it not unreasonable to state that the American Civil War is a subject on which i am well-informed.)

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Intrepid wrote:

xingu wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
How do you apply your theory to the American Civil War, xingu? Where brother was fighting brother.

Each saw the other as being, or at least accusing the other, of being atheistic. The South used the Bible as justification for their "particular institution". God of the Bible does approve of slavery. The North used religion to show that slavery was inhuman. Both sides saw each other as traitors.

The American Civil War was quite humane if you compare it to the wars of the twentieth century. Civilians, especially women, were, for the most part, treated with respect or at least tolerance. There were no bombings of civilian areas with the intent of killing large numbers of the civilian population as in WW II. And there was nothing like the terrorism that is currently being practiced by Israel and the Muslims fighting them. The only exception I can think of were the guerrilla wars fought in the Appalachians and in the Kansas-Missouri theater. Even the guerrilla warfare conducted by Col. Mosby was quite humane if you compare it to the warfare being conducted in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Americans in the Civil War did not see the enemy in the same light the Israelis and Muslims see each other. Many of the generals that fought each other were friends prior the the war. They served together in the west and the Mexican War. There was a bond between the two that prevented this war from getting out of hand and degrading into the type of conflicts we have today.

Are you serious? Did you read what you wrote? You have now changed the topic to humane? You now compare the wars of today and yesterday? What does that have to do with what was being asked? Do you have facts and proof of the atheism accusations that you say were going on?

Perhaps you didn't read correctly. I said humane as compared to what is happening today. Would you care to dispute that?

Prior to the Civil War both sides used the Bible to justify their stand on slavery. The South, then as today, took a literal interpretation of the Bible. This interpretation endorsed slavery.

The North took a more liberal view of the Bible. Theirs was more in the spirit of the Bible rather than the literal interpretation. For them this meant slavery was evil. Humans of all kinds were to treat others with respect and dignity.

The accusation of atheist was hurled more from the South than the North. As today the conservative view is an intolerant and uncompromising view. As Bush would say your either with us or against us. If against you were blasphemous and at worse atheist. Blasphemous and condemnation to hell was the primary accucation of the South but the big A word was also used to emphasize their point.

Was the A word common? Probably not but it was there as it is today. What was the title of Ann Coulter's latest book?

The Godless North who will not believe Gods word. Slavery is natural. It is good.

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Hate is a Four-Letter Family Value

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