LEGALIZING DRUGS

Hi Advocate

Unfortunately you are asking an ambiguous question, because you simply don't get jail for all possession offences, so let me clarify it :

Though the provisions in law exist for jail sentences for illegal drugs, people don't get sent to jail (in Australia at least) for minor possession of drugs, it's often just a fine. And this is the way it should be. The punishment should fit the 'crime', so to speak.

I have no problem whatsover with people being sent to jail for major possession offences.

If you are asking why a person found once in Possession of minor quantities of a minor drug should get a recorded conviction, Provision exists that the magistrate/judge record no conviction (even if they are found guilty). This means that no criminal history is recorded for the offence (but they still get a fine etc).

Possession of illegal drugs is a very, very well known law. People make choices to possess such drugs in the full knowledge that it is illegal, and that there are consequences if they get caught.



PS. As I am not familiar with other countries laws, it's hard to comment on them. Also, from experience, commenting on cases where you have only part details (and no knowledge of their criminal history) leads to erroneous arguments, so I'll refrain from that :wink:

Should we prevent crime by restricting freedom, or punish crime and have complete freedom? This question is larger than just this issue.

EDIT: Sounds like its own topic!

A recent poll in the USA indicated that about 75% of those in the USA favor the legalization of pot. I think it is about time that the politicians listened to the people.

It is correct to say that drug use affects others. But alcohol and tobacco use also affects others, and no one is interested in criminalizing these drugs. There are many, many, accidents caused by drunks daily, at terrific cost to society.

A recent pot poll published in Australia found that 1/3 found Pot unnacceptable, and that the level of people finding pot unnacceptable has been growing in the last few years (of course, that still leaves 2/3 who don't find it unnacceptable...I don't say 'in favour' because I don't know how the poll was worded...there is no doubt people who don't care one way or another)

v, unacceptable and illegal are two different things. I find pot unacceptable, but find criminalization crazy.

Hi Advaocate, that's fair enough.

By the way, re polls, it depends how the poll is worded. Example :

Q. Do you think drugs with a proven linkage to causing mental illness should be illegal?

Q. Do you think drugs that harm no one (ie marijuana) should be illegal?

Q. Do you think that drugs with a proven linkage to an increase in crime should be illegal?

Q. If drugs with a current linkage to crime were proven to not cause crime if they were decriminalised and freely available, do you think that they should be decriminalised?

Now each of those questions would get rather different responses don't you think?

The point of my post was not to say that a poll proves one way or another if something should be illegal, but that polls can say many different things (I should have posted the question thing earlier, sorry about that)

Edit : as a (rather controversial) example of things that aren't always decided on public opinion...virtually everyone I've ever asked (not quite everyone), is in favour of euthanasia (I don't know many catholics), yet it is illegal here in Australia (and most places in the world)

Hi,

"Push" polls is an interesting topic. They must fool a lot of people because I see them all the time.

Our prisons are full of people, many with long sentences, convicted of drug related crimes. I think that the justice/prison industrial complex likes it that way, and will fight any effort at legalization. What is particularly terrible is that so many very young people, many in college, have their lives ruined because they possessed some dope, or maybe sold some leftover dope to a friend. Wouldn't it be better to use that prison money instead to educate and rehabilitate?

Are your prisons similarly (over 50 %) with people convicted of drug crimes?

I don't know the % stats of prisoners and their crimes in Australia sorry (funnily enough, now that you mention it, I've never seen such a stat published in a newspaper)

I do doubt that anyone has been jailed for possession dope here (unless they've been caught maybe 10-20 times...in which case they are doing something else to come to police attention), as it's seen as a fairly minor offence here.

Certainly there will be a high % who have committed drug related crimes (Break & Enters, Car thefts etc), but if they haven't done many of said offences, they can get drug rehab orders, or suspended sentences. As far as I'm aware, drug related crimes like B&E's etc are committed mostly by those addicted to Heroine and Amphetamine related drugs. Marijuana is used by many crims, but as far as I'm aware isn't related to the crimes they commit (ie. they don't commit crimes to get money to buy dope)

As I think you would agree, making drugs illegal drives up their cost. This makes addicts commit crimes, such as B & E, to raise money to feed their addiction. Alcoholics and smokers don't have to resort to money-raising crimes.

As we've already had the economic ramifications argument, and I've already supplied my opinion on it, I'll refer you back to that.

v, I don't think you addressed the issue of addicts being forced to commit crimes to feed their addictions.

Milton Friedman is one of my heros, as is Isaac Asimov.

Forced? Are you once more trying to suggest that people don't make their own decisions? Do you think that the drugs somehow think thoughts for these people? Or perhaps you are saying that the drugs guide the users hand to the jemmy bar, moves their feet around the house they break into, and closes their hands over the laptop that they are about to steal? Of course not...this is a conscious decision on the part of the offender. Drugs can be a motivating influence, but they can't force anyone to break into a house.

People are responsible for their own actions. Making excuses for them doesn't change that, though it does give them a reason to go on believing they are actually the victims.

And this is the problem - most people addicted to hard drugs see themselves as victims. Those that get off them are the ones who that choose to stop 'being victims' (ie they stop seeing themselves as victims) and admit they have a problem. Notice that these are conscious decisions...and the drugs don't rob them of the ability to make the choice. It may not be simple, it may not be easy, it may even be painful, but they are capable of making the choice.

Milton Friedman, a brilliant and flawed man, correctly railed against the criminalization of drugs.

Hi v,

Picky, picky! I didn't say, or believe, that addicts should be excused. I am just saying that it is foolish not to understand that addicts WILL commit crimes to pay for illegal drugs. This argues against making drugs illegal.

Here's a post I made on this subject back in December.

Lord E, well stated and unassailable.

Here is a post I made on the subject in April 2006 which is even more well stated and more unassailable.

It may be the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I, as a bystander, should reasonably expect it to happen.

The fact is, people are going to use, people are going to abuse, and it makes sense to have policies that mitigate against the externalities of their decisions. Safe use havens (since that's been the recent topic) aren't, to my mind, about protecting the addicts (though certainly they provide opportunities to do so); it's about protecting their neighbors.

Which isn't even touching on the economics and logistics of the war on drugs, which is at the heart of my opposition to it.

Of course addicts will commit crimes to pay for illegal drugs. Even if it were legal, they could still :
-commit crimes (not caused by the need to pay for the drugs)
-have psychotic episodes
-put other people in hospital, caused by those psychotic episodes
-have schizophrenia triggered
-do long term damage to themselves
-add to the health system costs
-cause grief and stress to their families
-have their personalities change
-lose motivation
-find life valueless without drugs
-drive whilst effected by drugs
-play chicken in the traffic whilst effected by drugs
-become suicidal, and jump in front of trains whilst effected by drugs
-get a hold of guns/knives whilst effected by drugs
-be violent domestic abusers whilst on drugs (alcohol has a similar effect on some)
-birth addicted babies
-hook their children up with drugs
-set an example to their children that being addicted is normal, acceptable, and okay.



And the economics of legalising drugs (aside from the possible effects on the user, their families, and the public) is at the heart of my opposition to it.

v, the things that you think would happen were drugs made legal would, in general, happen anyway. Moreover, having the drugs illegal adds many other horrific consequences of drug use.

If you support keeping drugs illegal...
by [email protected], June 27, 1995



You support robberies and assaults on innocent people.
The high prices of drugs caused by prohibition force many drug addicts to turn to robbery in order to pay for their drugs. Legalization would drop drug prices. Drug users would no longer need to rob/assault innocent people in order to support their drug habit. This violence against innocent people would end if drugs were legalized.

You support clogging our prisons and jails with nonviolent people.
Nearly 50% of all people in prison and jail are serving time for nonviolent drug charges. There are thousands of people in prisons for 5, 10, 50 years--even life--for possessing marijuana or cocaine! The average rapist is set free after serving only 3 years in prison, the average murderer is set free after serving only 9 years in prison! To house just one prisoner for one year costs the taxpayer $40,000! The result of these harsh penalties? Drug use has increased! (Tough laws have not stopped me from using marijuana--nor will they ever!)

You support organized crime and drug cartels.
Huge drug cartels and criminal organizations thrive off the enormous profits caused by drug prohibition. These organizations are responsible for thousands of murders! Many of people killed or hurt are innocent people who get in the way! These violent organizations will never be put out of business--unless drugs are legalized.

You support environmental destruction.
Underground cocaine and methamphetamine labs use toxic chemicals to produce those drugs--the wastes are recklessly dumped in forests and streams. These highly toxic chemicals are causing major environmental damage in South American rainforests and now in the U.S. This environmental destruction will stop only if drugs are legalized.

You support drug dealers and street gangs.
Drug dealers and street gangs fight over drug territories. Thousands of people are murdered and assaulted because of this fighting--many are innocent people who get in the way. This violence is another result of the huge profits caused by drug prohibition.

You lure thousands of young people into quitting school.
It is a fact that thousands of inner-city youths drop out of school to make enormous profits by selling drugs. The incentive to drop out of school would end if drugs were legalized.

You do nothing to keep drugs away from kids or out of schools.
In spite of what you may believe, keeping drugs illegal does not keep drugs away from children! Drugs are easily obtainable in almost every high school in America. Legalizing drugs would put schoolyard drug dealers out of business! There would be less drugs in our schools if drugs were legalized. Drugs would still be illegal for minors!

You subsidize criminals by letting them reap huge drug profits without paying taxes.
Since drugs are sold anyway, wouldn't you rather have them heavily taxed so it would reduce your tax burden? You are giving criminals a free ride and it's coming out of your own pocket. Working people pay 100% of all taxes for the drug dealers! Why do you want to pay taxes for drug dealers?

You advocate punishing millions of harmless drug users (like me) at an enormous cost to society.
If you believe drugs should be illegal, then you advocate spending your tax dollars to arrest/jail/punish millions of productive, honest, and harmless working people (like myself). Why? We hurt nobody! Who benefits from this policy? Nobody! Who loses from this policy? Everybody!
Drug users can only hurt themselves. But the drug war harms/kills hundreds of thousands of innocent people and burdens you--the taxpayer. The drug war costs you hundreds of dollars every year! The drug war has not reduced drug use!


Prohibitionists claim drugs must be illegal because they harm people. Why are prohibitionists so concerned about what other people do to themselves? Why do they feel it is their responsibility and right to control the lifestyles of other adults? The prohibitionists tell stories of people who hurt themselves with illegal drugs. So what? For every one person who has been harmed with illegal drugs, there are dozens of people who have used illegal drugs and were not harmed. For every one person who has been harmed by illegal drugs, there are 1,000 people who harm/kill themselves by deliberately choosing these harmful lifestyles...
Being overweight
Smoking cigarettes
Watching too much TV
Eating high-fat/high-cholesterol diets
Eating too much meat
Participating in dangerous sports/activities
Drinking alcohol
Eating too much sugar
Eating too few fruits/vegetables
Drinking too much coffee
Getting little/no exercise
Why don't the prohibitionists advocate banning all of the above harmful lifestyles? The prohibitionists tolerate people who hurt/kill themselves with tobacco, alcohol, poor diet, or no exercise, but they refuse to tolerate people who harm themselves with cocaine. Why? Inconsistent! Illogical! Irrational!
We now come to the real reason why marijuana, cocaine, LSD, and other drugs are illegal: Lifestyle control! Prohibitionists fear that if drugs are legalized, the "drug culture" will spread to the rest of society. Nobody can force others to use drugs! Adults must take responsibility for their own health! Because the prohibitionists have decided that drugs are wrong for them does not give them the right to force their lifestyle on others. Prohibitionists want government to play the role of parent. Prohibitionists believe they must babysit adults. Prohibitionists are the lifestyle police!

In the last 25 years, per capita alcohol and tobacco consumption has decreased significantly. This was accomplished by education and treatment, not by threat of punishment! Drug use/abuse would drop significantly if we spent our resources on education and treatment instead of law enforcement. No rational person would call for imprisonment of smokers and drinkers in order to reduce tobacco and alcohol use. But that method is exactly how we try to reduce drug use. The savings to be had in ending the drug war could easily pay for all the drug treatment and education programs we need. The drug war is a failure! Education and treatment work!

If you don't like a culture or a lifestyle, don't live it! If you don't like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, or other drugs, don't use them! But don't ban my personal lifestyle for fear it will poison your lifestyle. Adults must take responsibility for their own actions! It is a flagrant violation of individual freedom to threaten others with punishment just because they choose a lifestyle that is not right for you.

I will continue to smoke marijuana and enjoy it! I hurt nobody! If others do not approve of what I do to myself in my own home, too bad! I may not care for the music you listen to, the food you eat, or the culture you have adopted, but I would never advocate punishing you because I don't like your lifestyle. If someone violates the rights of others, the violater should be punished; otherwise, people should mind their own business. Adults who use drugs responsibly--whether they be tobacco, alcohol, LSD, or marijuana--cause no harm to others! Leave us alone!

If you still believe drugs should be illegal, answer this question... Why do you believe it is good policy to punish me--and 20 million adult Americans like me--because I choose to use marijuana in the privacy of my own home? Who benefits from this policy and how do they benefit?


Total cost of drug prohibition
Over 300,000 nonviolent people lose their freedom to prison/jail.
Thousands of murders, assaults, and robberies caused by drug crimes.
$20 billion/year in law enforcement costs.
$10 billion/year in lost tax revenue (similar to alcohol tax).
$5 billion/year in property losses due to drug-related crimes.
$50 billion/year and 500,000 jobs lost because of no hemp industry.
Total cost = $85 billion/year = $500 per taxpayer every year!