The necessity of religion

1. True, but they probably still believe in god... whether it's from a fear of being wrong or just out of habit and environment. My parents both believe in god, but neither have gone to church in decades and probably couldn't recite a single bible verse if you asked. God is a safe bet.

2. I tried to make it clear in an earlier post that i meant faith as encompassing religion and spirituality. The belief in any higher power, whatever form it takes, is how i'd define faith in this context.

3. A follower of Bahai isn't abnormal because they have faith in a higher power.

Im not trying to discuss specific spiritual doctrines or beliefs, but all of them together. Religions haven't stayed the same throughout the centuries, new ones have been created, others have died, and some were just modified. But throughout all of that is a belief in some higher power, something greater than we that influences and guides our lives.

If atheism were normal, if it were even sustainable, then why hasn't there ever been an atheistic civilization, culture, or society? It can't just be technological progress, since everything is relative. 3000 years ago spirituality radiated from things like fire, water, the sun and the moon. But by 2000 years ago, many of those things had been explained by greek and roman astronomers and philosophers. Why wasnt the greek/roman technological revolution met with a successful atheist "revolt"? Things that were previously thought to be the work of god were now fully explained, yet faith simply changed and modified itself to fit a new dynamic. Why?

What is it about religion/faith/spirituality that compels people toward it, no matter what?

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LOL ... Being an atheist, I have no idea!

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Mame wrote:

LOL ... Being an atheist, I have no idea!

Then, since you're able to shrug off something that's been a pillar of humanity for so long, and which to this day holds the majority of the world in its thrall, doesn't it suggest that atheists are abnormal?

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Why are you so curious?

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Why are you so curious?

And I object to labels like 'abnormal'. There are stigmas attached to some words.

I am an individualist who is free to believe whatever I want. And I can even change my mind from time to time.

Would it surprise you to know I have no definitive position on abortion or the death penalty and many other hot button topics? I don't feel it's necessary to have a stand on every single issue...

So you can say I'm "shrugging off" religion, but I couldn't care less who believes what or why. There are probably just as many reasons as there are believers and this concerns me how?

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Mame wrote:

Why are you so curious?

And I object to labels like 'abnormal'. There are stigmas attached to some words.

I am an individualist who is free to believe whatever I want. And I can even change my mind from time to time.

Would it surprise you to know I have no definitive position on abortion or the death penalty and many other hot button topics? I don't feel it's necessary to have a stand on every single issue...

So you can say I'm "shrugging off" religion, but I couldn't care less who believes what or why. There are probably just as many reasons as there are believers and this concerns me how?

Im curious because i think there is some biology behind faith... that there's something ingrained in our DNA that predisposes us towards belief in something greater than ourselves, no matter what evidence we see to the contrary.

I realize there are stigmas associated with calling something abnormal, but i use it only as it's defined - something atypical. A genius is abnormal. So is a 3-legged snake. Im not passing judgement by calling something abnormal, just clarifying that it's clearly different from the majority.

Im not trying to make this personal, im sorry if it seemed that way. When i talk about you shrugging off religion, i meant it as an example of how easy it is for you to do so while at the same time it's impossible for millions of other people. Why is that? What other explanation is there other than something biological? How can something so epehemeral be the driving force for so many people when everything tangible points in the opposite direction?

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Monolith wrote:

Look at the obesity rates in modern society. Obesity is a biological coping mechanism that was relevant when we were all hunter-gatherers, but it's long since obsolete. It's now become a hindrance. But just because it's a hindrance doesn't mean it's easy to just get rid of. It's a part of who we are, and we need to mold our lives around that hindrance and work with it or it'll kill us.

Obesity isn't a coping mechanism. Obesity has never been desirable.

What you're thinking of is our taste for fatty foods and foods that are high in carbohydrates. This evolved to ensure we eat as much as possible, to ensure we have as much stores of carbohydrates and fats to keep us going when there was little food available.

Obesity is the result of this trait in a society where we don't need to store extra carbohydrates and fats to keep us going.

Quote:

If atheism were normal, if it were even sustainable, then why hasn't there ever been an atheistic civilization, culture, or society?

Well, perhaps not culture, but certainly civilisation and society.

Ant colonies are atheistic, as are termite colonies. In fact, quite a lot of rather intelligent animals don't appear to have any need for worship or even the knowledge of a god.

Dolphins are very intelligent, yet do you see them worshipping?

Granted, we cannot assume that they don't believe in a god, but likewise, you cannot assume that they do. Just because you find relief in believing in a god, does not mean that it is a universal trait.

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Monolith wrote:

Mame wrote:
Why are you so curious?

And I object to labels like 'abnormal'. There are stigmas attached to some words.

I am an individualist who is free to believe whatever I want. And I can even change my mind from time to time.

Would it surprise you to know I have no definitive position on abortion or the death penalty and many other hot button topics? I don't feel it's necessary to have a stand on every single issue...

So you can say I'm "shrugging off" religion, but I couldn't care less who believes what or why. There are probably just as many reasons as there are believers and this concerns me how?

Im curious because i think there is some biology behind faith... that there's something ingrained in our DNA that predisposes us towards belief in something greater than ourselves, no matter what evidence we see to the contrary.

I realize there are stigmas associated with calling something abnormal, but i use it only as it's defined - something atypical. A genius is abnormal. So is a 3-legged snake. Im not passing judgement by calling something abnormal, just clarifying that it's clearly different from the majority.

Im not trying to make this personal, im sorry if it seemed that way. When i talk about you shrugging off religion, i meant it as an example of how easy it is for you to do so while at the same time it's impossible for millions of other people. Why is that? What other explanation is there other than something biological? How can something so epehemeral be the driving force for so many people when everything tangible points in the opposite direction?

I'm not taking it personally but neither do I think I'm shrugging it off. There are lots of things I don't care about, and this is just one of them. I suppose I've already done my thinking about this and don't see a need to revisit the issue. And millions of people who don't shrug it off perhaps don't want to.

I think it's not that mankind is controlled by their DNA to be compelled to believe in something, rather, we need a rational explanation for topics, like our existence. We, as a species, are uncomfortable not knowing or understanding the inexplicable. Hence we try to develop theories.

Religions keep large groups of people in order. I think that's a big part of why they're so successful. We seem to need this societal structure. Many follow the strictures of their religion to the letter. Not to point specific fingers, but look at the Catholic religion. It's amazing the control over their own lives that people choose to give up. No birth control, no abortions, no divorces? Other religions have their control methods, too, of course (thinking now here of Scientology).

I am anti-authoritarinistic, so I am naturally against anything that restricts what I consider my free and automatic rights.

For me, religions are oppressive. They do not encourage free thought and expression. If you don't meet the club's criteria, you are frowned upon and punished until you go back into the mold.

So, there you have it - my explanation.

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Obesity isn't a coping mechanism. Obesity has never been desirable.

What you're thinking of is our taste for fatty foods and foods that are high in carbohydrates. This evolved to ensure we eat as much as possible, to ensure we have as much stores of carbohydrates and fats to keep us going when there was little food available.

Obesity is the result of this trait in a society where we don't need to store extra carbohydrates and fats to keep us going.

Yes, you're right, i worded that poorly. That's what i meant.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

Well, perhaps not culture, but certainly civilisation and society.

Ant colonies are atheistic, as are termite colonies. In fact, quite a lot of rather intelligent animals don't appear to have any need for worship or even the knowledge of a god.

Dolphins are very intelligent, yet do you see them worshipping?

Granted, we cannot assume that they don't believe in a god, but likewise, you cannot assume that they do. Just because you find relief in believing in a god, does not mean that it is a universal trait.

Ants and dolphins aren't self-aware, though. They don't contemplate their existence, so they'd never come up with the concept of god.

Im not sure i see your point with this.

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Bleh, i kind of led this thread away from the topic. Sorry.

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hey,

my name is shevy, i am turning 20 on 10 september ! i am an agnostic, perhaps that's the best way to put it, i believe, from observation, and from my own existence and the existence of the universe that there must be some "intelligence" we call god, who started it all. but it looks as if this god created the world and let it run on its own, according to the laws of science, without interfering in the day to day running of the universe, as religion claims.

while i appreciate the fact that religion does good to some people and it increases longevity, it doesn't do much good to me. i care about what's true, it seems unreasonable to refer to books written in the bronze age as absolute truths. it's funny that people ignore reason and scientific findings to pin their thinking on these holy texts. i appreciate the moral benefits of religion, but i don't think it does much to explain the universe and why we are here, and the characteristics of god. science seems to me to actually show me a better picture of god and truth than religion.

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Welcome to the forum, shevy.

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Lekatt wrote:

I know near death experiences are a controversial subject. The reason is simple, research on them shows consciousness lives after the death of the body. It will probable take about 20-30 years to sort out, but I have faith the after life will be accepted.

Near-death experiences do not tell us anything about what happens after death, since they are merly the experiences of those whose brains are extremely stressed by lack of oxygen, disassociative drugs such as ketamine, or trauma. In a landmark 2001 Dutch study, NDEs were reported by 12% (depending on how it was defined) of people surviving cardiac arrest, but it is not known whether the experience occurred before, during, or after the flatline period. We simply do not know what happens when the brain is completely dead. Since consciousness is measurably impaired by drugs or damage to specific parts of the brain, I doubt that it can exist independent of the physical brain that generates it.

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Monolith wrote:

Plants and animals aren't sentient. At least, not in any way we recognize. Religion is a product of sentience.

Plants are not sentient, but some animals are (certainly primates and dolphins, others such as elephants, dogs and crows depending on how you define sentient). Agreed that religion requires sentience.

Quote:

Im not saying religion is perfect (if it was we'd all be devout), but that i think people today are too anxious to pass it off as an archaic crutch from our past. We'd be foolish to so quickly dismiss something that's been with us since the beginning. We like to think of ourselves as beyond superstition, that we're all capable of rational and intelligent thought, and i think it's that egotistical view of ourselves that's making us leap away from religion faster than we should.

We don't know how long ago religion was invented, but I doubt if it has existed as long as homo sapiens has. Um, exactly how fast do you think we should leap away from religion?

I agree that religion serves many purposes whether or not it is correct and that it can improve the lives of some of its followers. Do you think that the utility of a belief is more important than its truthfulness?

Quote:

If atheism were normal, if it were even sustainable, then why hasn't there ever been an atheistic civilization, culture, or society? It can't just be technological progress, since everything is relative. 3000 years ago spirituality radiated from things like fire, water, the sun and the moon. But by 2000 years ago, many of those things had been explained by greek and roman astronomers and philosophers. Why wasnt the greek/roman technological revolution met with a successful atheist "revolt"? Things that were previously thought to be the work of god were now fully explained, yet faith simply changed and modified itself to fit a new dynamic. Why?

What is it about religion/faith/spirituality that compels people toward it, no matter what?

There probably have been, but that's like asking why there weren't sustainable vegetarian societies or why the Israelites persisted in worshipping the gods of their neighbors when their own god did not provide for them. Given a choice, most people prefer things that make them feel good, such as eating meat and believing that they can control their fate by performing certain rites, making sacrifices or praying to the right gods. I suspect that much of Christianity's appeal lies in the comforting belief that we can survive death and be reunited with loved ones to spend eternity in Paradise. Who wouldn't want a religion that could convince them that it was possible?

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shevykapita wrote:

hey,
i believe, from observation, and from my own existence and the existence of the universe that there must be some "intelligence" we call god, who started it all.

Why? Just curious.

Welcome to A2K shevy !! Very Happy

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Monolith wrote:

Ants and dolphins aren't self-aware, though. They don't contemplate their existence, so they'd never come up with the concept of god.

Im not sure i see your point with this.

Well, maybe not ants, but dolphins are self-aware. You cannot, also, say that no organism is not self-aware. Have you done the experiments to prove this true? Have you done any experiments to prove it to be so?

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Terry wrote:

Lekatt wrote:
I know near death experiences are a controversial subject. The reason is simple, research on them shows consciousness lives after the death of the body. It will probable take about 20-30 years to sort out, but I have faith the after life will be accepted.

Near-death experiences do not tell us anything about what happens after death, since they are merly the experiences of those whose brains are extremely stressed by lack of oxygen, disassociative drugs such as ketamine, or trauma. In a landmark 2001 Dutch study, NDEs were reported by 12% (depending on how it was defined) of people surviving cardiac arrest, but it is not known whether the experience occurred before, during, or after the flatline period. We simply do not know what happens when the brain is completely dead. Since consciousness is measurably impaired by drugs or damage to specific parts of the brain, I doubt that it can exist independent of the physical brain that generates it.

Your study is out of date. Near death experiences do tell us a lot about what happens after death of the brain. You could start by reading a few dozen of them. There are numerous links, but I will give you only a couple.

Short article:

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/9278005cp.shtml

Then a long article:

http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel.php

There are plenty of NDEs to read here:

http://www.aleroy.com/board00.htm

It is death that causes a near death experience, some scientists confuse the method of dying with the experience. I don't expect this to change your mind, but do want you to know what is going on currently.

Love

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I should have tied my last post into the subject of the thread.

It is these kind of experiences that cause people to believe in God, and have faith for the future.

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Eorl wrote:

shevykapita wrote:
hey,
i believe, from observation, and from my own existence and the existence of the universe that there must be some "intelligence" we call god, who started it all.

I am sure you agree with me that science accounts for the universe, but what accounts for science?
The answer obviously lies outside science and physics. I am content to say "God" created the universe, and by studying science, we are looking into "his mind" according to Stephen Hawking.

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shevykapita wrote:

I am sure you agree with me that science accounts for the universe, but what accounts for science?
The answer obviously lies outside science and physics. I am content to say "God" created the universe, and by studying science, we are looking into "his mind" according to Stephen Hawking.

Surely what you meant to say that one of the answers lies outside science and physics and that you are content to say it might be God. Otherwise, you wouldn't really be an agnostic, would you?

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The necessity of religion

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