The necessity of religion

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I'm an atheist. There is nothing which suggests to me a god in the form that most religious texts describe. That said, ive come to feel that religion (in any form) is an absolute necessity and that atheism is abnormal.

Nearly every centenarian is religious. There was an article in National Geographic last year that mentioned how a common theme among the worlds oldest people was a strong faith. NatG isn't exactly a scholarly publication, but it's not TIME either. But you dont have to look very hard to find even stronger evidence:

http://ageing.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/27/2/207
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10680272&query_hl=15&itool=pubmed_docsum

Certainly there are other factors to long-life than faith, but its very telling that faith is such a large part of all of these peoples lives. Religion has been a part of human society since our first steps as modern humans. Even before modern humans... there's evidence that neanderthals practiced ritual burials. Perhaps our reliance on religion has evolved to become a necessity? Perhaps those of us who don't have faith are actually harming ourselves?

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Sorry i didnt add this to my first post, im trying to multitask at the moment. :p

Anyway, it goes further than just longevity. It gets into quality of life as well. Im an atheist, but im also a depressed atheist. If i had to give an immediate answer, it's because i don't feel a sense of purpose. My beliefs tend towards existentialism, which isn't exactly the happiest of beliefs. Im certainly not saying that every atheist/agnostic is unhappy, but id argue that the majority of them are not as happy as their counterpart in an organized religion.

Religious communities seem to be much stronger than secular ones. They support each other, look after each other, and seem to use religion as a strong bond with which to relate to one another. Secular communities seem to lack that.

I've often thought to myself that if i could snap my fingers and believe in god, i would, since it seems like a much happier existence.

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Hi Monolith,
You may find very good article in this page about Religion and health.

Webpage Title

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I'm a sort of agnostic with strong atheist leanings, and I think I'm starting to grow up a bit and accept that religion does a lot of people a world of good, just like you're saying. I'm not particularly happy either, and would perhaps prefer to have faith in religious stuff if it would bring me happiness.

But I can't see that happening. As it is now, I don't see any rational reason to believe in God, the afterlife etc. If scientific evidence starts to point towards the existence of these things, or if a philosopher provides an argument for the existence of these things that seems to be indisputible, then I may change my beliefs. But I don't think that is likely to happen any time soon, so if I am going to believe religious things I am going to need to have faith. And I don't see that happening either, because I think faith is completely irrational.

Maybe you are in a similar position? We'll have to learn to get along alright without religion. It might help to think more positively about a Godless world. Nothing matters, but maybe that can be a good thing.

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Dear Agrote..

Rational and Irrational concepts are up to our mind. So this file may be attractive for you about God existence.

Nature and God

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It goes to the character of the individual to be fulfilled or not. You will discover if you look around enough that religious belief or lack thereoff has little to do with it. This month I will turn 64. I have not begun to bend on the issue of atheism, and I am as content as can be with myself and my life. While it is true that religion affords comfort to many, it is also true that much strife and bloodshed may be traced to the practice of religion. Look within yourself for the answers.

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Yes.. Edgar

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Monolith,

A couple of things come to mind about your theory.

1) The worlds oldest people are from the 1800's. A lot more people were religious back then !

2) Older people do tend to lean more strongly towards the faith they took for granted when they were younger....approaching oblivion may have something to do with that.

Therefore, the fact that the oldest people are strongly religious does not automatically mean that strong religion helps you live longer.

As for the idea that religion is necessary, that's like saying that's it's best people continue to think the earth is the centre of the universe....if they all know that they are just a tiny speck far from the centre of a vast universe, they'll all go mad !!

People may not enthusiastically embrace the stark reality that atheism embodies, but eventually...truth will out.

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Religion is probably a biological mechanism, much like the appendix or tonsils, that has persisted to exist despite being obsolete.
Once it was probably necessary to avoid insanity, now it is insanity.
Full circle anyone?

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edgarblythe wrote:

It goes to the character of the individual to be fulfilled or not. You will discover if you look around enough that religious belief or lack thereoff has little to do with it.

I agree. Simply and well put.

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Monolith wrote:

Perhaps our reliance on religion has evolved to become a necessity? Perhaps those of us who don't have faith are actually harming ourselves.

If religion were a necessity for life, how could animals and plants survive?

Religion is a cultural invention that can enhance group cohesiveness, foster mutual support, and lessen stress through belief in a benevolent protector and an ultimate purpose to life. It can also harm people by instilling feelings of guilt, worthlessness, fear of eternal punishment, intolerance, hate, and denial of anything which contradicts religious tenets.

Do you know of any studies on longevity vs. non-Christian religions, or religion and suicide? Do the people-years of extended life attributable to religious belief exceed the lost people-years of those killed for religious reasons or by religious extremists?

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Spirituality vs. Religion
This is a very interesting thread. I think you have to distinguish between spirituality and religion. One can be spiritual and not be religious as well as vice versa.

Religion has to do with rules and rituals on how to believe in, and/or worship a God.

Spirituality is personal. An understanding of self and faith in a higher intelligence. There are spiritual experiences, that reinforce the faith. I believe you will find these people who grow very old are spiritual, and not necessarily religious.

The near death experience is a spiritual experience that changes the experiencer totally. Atheists and agnostics alike become spiritual after such an experience. It is not the belief you hold that means anything, its the truth of that belief that matters. So as you go through life and experience many, many events eventually you understand there is something of greater intelligence in this world that cares about you.

Arguments about the failings of religion are essentially mute. You can take any organization and find the same failings. It is people that harm other people, not organizations.

I know near death experiences are a controversial subject. The reason is simple, research on them shows consciousness lives after the death of the body. It will probable take about 20-30 years to sort out, but I have faith the after life will be accepted.

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edgarblythe wrote:

It goes to the character of the individual to be fulfilled or not. You will discover if you look around enough that religious belief or lack thereoff has little to do with it. This month I will turn 64. I have not begun to bend on the issue of atheism, and I am as content as can be with myself and my life. While it is true that religion affords comfort to many, it is also true that much strife and bloodshed may be traced to the practice of religion. Look within yourself for the answers.

Ya know, i oftean hear people say that religion leads to bloodshed... and i used to take it as a reason against religion, but not so much anymore. Religion has indeed led to war, but no more than other godless ideologies. If you were to snap your fingers and remove every semblance of organized religion from the planet, you'd still have war, it'd just be fought for different reasons.

I tend to believe that strife is inevitable. The more things that people agree on, the more they'll magnify the importance of the things they still dont agree on. Look at the US as an example... there were many important things that this country had to decide upon in the 19th century, from whether or not blacks were really human to the right of the federal government to directly tax its citizens. Big stuff. Yet today, when we're left squabbling over relatively minor things like how to reform social security or whether or not to give people a tax break, the country seems just as divisive as ever (if not more so).

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Eorl wrote:

Monolith,

A couple of things come to mind about your theory.

1) The worlds oldest people are from the 1800's. A lot more people were religious back then !

2) Older people do tend to lean more strongly towards the faith they took for granted when they were younger....approaching oblivion may have something to do with that.

Therefore, the fact that the oldest people are strongly religious does not automatically mean that strong religion helps you live longer.

As for the idea that religion is necessary, that's like saying that's it's best people continue to think the earth is the centre of the universe....if they all know that they are just a tiny speck far from the centre of a vast universe, they'll all go mad !!

People may not enthusiastically embrace the stark reality that atheism embodies, but eventually...truth will out.

Very true... age, war, and other things that make peoples mortality a tangible thing tend to spread religion pretty quickly. A lot of the people i linked to in my first post had been religious for quite a while, though... i didn't seem like something they'd only discovered in the latter part of their lives.

As for the speck in the universe... i think people can cope with that because it doesn't change the fact that if they lead a good life, they'll be rewarded for it. As long as people have faith, they don't need to understand "god's design." Hawking could announce tomorrow that the universe is actually no bigger than our solar system, and the only people who'd be turned on their head by such an announcement is the people who have no faith. Those who have god weather the storm easily because their belief doesn't have to change to suit reality, reality is simply a product of god, and therefore isn't beholden to it.

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Doktor S wrote:

Religion is probably a biological mechanism, much like the appendix or tonsils, that has persisted to exist despite being obsolete.
Once it was probably necessary to avoid insanity, now it is insanity.
Full circle anyone?

Perhaps. But do you think it's so easy to just cut it out, as with an appendix?

Look at the obesity rates in modern society. Obesity is a biological coping mechanism that was relevant when we were all hunter-gatherers, but it's long since obsolete. It's now become a hindrance. But just because it's a hindrance doesn't mean it's easy to just get rid of. It's a part of who we are, and we need to mold our lives around that hindrance and work with it or it'll kill us.

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Terry wrote:

If religion were a necessity for life, how could animals and plants survive?

Religion is a cultural invention that can enhance group cohesiveness, foster mutual support, and lessen stress through belief in a benevolent protector and an ultimate purpose to life. It can also harm people by instilling feelings of guilt, worthlessness, fear of eternal punishment, intolerance, hate, and denial of anything which contradicts religious tenets.

Do you know of any studies on longevity vs. non-Christian religions, or religion and suicide? Do the people-years of extended life attributable to religious belief exceed the lost people-years of those killed for religious reasons or by religious extremists?

Plants and animals aren't sentient. At least, not in any way we recognize. Religion is a product of sentience.

Im not saying religion is perfect (if it was we'd all be devout), but that i think people today are too anxious to pass it off as an archaic crutch from our past. We'd be foolish to so quickly dismiss something that's been with us since the beginning. We like to think of ourselves as beyond superstition, that we're all capable of rational and intelligent thought, and i think it's that egotistical view of ourselves that's making us leap away from religion faster than we should.

Im not aware of many more studies than the one's i first posted. There may be more, but probably not many. It's not something that's been studied much, since i think most of the scientific community shuns anything to do with faith. As far as religious extremists and violence attributed to religion, i'll defer to my earlier post.

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Monolith wrote:

I'm an atheist. There is nothing which suggests to me a god in the form that most religious texts describe. That said, ive come to feel that religion (in any form) is an absolute necessity and that atheism is abnormal.

I certainly don't agree with what you've said. I'm an athiest and very happily so and I am quite sure I'm not the only one.

I don't understand why you feel atheism is abnormal.

I don't think of religions as a crutch so much as I think of them as schools of thought that people can adhere to. Some people need or prefer to be a part of a group. There's nothing wrong with this; it's just not for everyone.

It's when one of these people starts telling others who are not in a "group" that they should be and they'll be going to hell if they don't believe their religious teachings, that's when I stop listening.

Being part of a large group doesn't make you right; likewise, being an atheist doesn't make you abnormal.

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Re: Spirituality vs. Religion

Lekatt wrote:

This is a very interesting thread. I think you have to distinguish between spirituality and religion. One can be spiritual and not be religious as well as vice versa.

Religion has to do with rules and rituals on how to believe in, and/or worship a God.

Spirituality is personal. An understanding of self and faith in a higher intelligence. There are spiritual experiences, that reinforce the faith. I believe you will find these people who grow very old are spiritual, and not necessarily religious.

But both are centered on a belief in a higher power, whatever form that higher power takes. It's that overall faith that im suggesting is important.

Lekatt wrote:

The near death experience is a spiritual experience that changes the experiencer totally. Atheists and agnostics alike become spiritual after such an experience. It is not the belief you hold that means anything, its the truth of that belief that matters. So as you go through life and experience many, many events eventually you understand there is something of greater intelligence in this world that cares about you.

Arguments about the failings of religion are essentially mute. You can take any organization and find the same failings. It is people that harm other people, not organizations.

I know near death experiences are a controversial subject. The reason is simple, research on them shows consciousness lives after the death of the body. It will probable take about 20-30 years to sort out, but I have faith the after life will be accepted.

What is it that makes that faith so "sticky", though? How can someone who's a lifelong atheist suddenly become faithful after a near-death experience? Why doesn't their faith in atheism trump their new faith in god? How can someone believe one thing for their entire lives, and then have one experience push them in a completely opposite direction? While it does happen, you certainly don't hear as many faithful people suddenly becoming atheists (as far as i know, anyway).

Why is god so important to a world that tries to value science, logic, and reason above all else? How is it that religion has even survived this long? Civilizations rise and fall; history turns to myth turns to forgotten knowledge; yet above all faith in a higher power remains. Why? And if it's so persistent, then aren't we fooling ourselves to believe that we will ever be rid of it? Further, isn't it foolish to try and be rid of something that's been with us for so many millennia without incident, simply because it doesn't jive with our desire for a purely reason-driven society?

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Mame wrote:

I certainly don't agree with what you've said. I'm an athiest and very happily so and I am quite sure I'm not the only one.

I don't understand why you feel atheism is abnormal.

I don't think of religions as a crutch so much as I think of them as schools of thought that people can adhere to. Some people need or prefer to be a part of a group. There's nothing wrong with this; it's just not for everyone.

It's when one of these people starts telling others who are not in a "group" that they should be and they'll be going to hell if they don't believe their religious teachings, that's when I stop listening.

Being part of a large group doesn't make you right; likewise, being an atheist doesn't make you abnormal.

But what else is atheism but a rejection of what the majority of humans believe in? Isn't that the very definition of abnormal? If faith in a higher power is able to withstand every bit of reason and logic thrown at it, then doesn't that suggest that someone who is able to shrug off religion without a second thought is abnormal?

Then again, is atheism just faith in a faithless world? Logic/Reason/Science supports atheism much more than religion, sure, but it still doesn't prove it. Are we as atheists simply pretending we dont have faith, but in reality we do?

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First, the definition of atheism... it's a belief that there are no gods, no God. Second, you're assuming a couple of things.

1. That everyone who belongs to a religion actually believes it. I'm sure some just go because they think they're supposed to and, if asked, would be hard put to tell you why or what they 'believe'. In other words, they are not true believers. They're just followers for the sake of it; perhaps they're too lazy to do anything about their non-belief.

2. You're assuming that because a person's not religious they're also not spiritual. Spirituality can be a belief in other-worldly entitities that are not necessarily gods. Or belief in another plane(s) of existence. Perhaps someone believes that we are under alien control.

3. You say: "But what else is atheism but a rejection of what the majority of humans believe in? Isn't that the very definition of abnormal?"
That means that someone of the B'hai Faith is abnormal because their religion is not what the majority of humans believe in?

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The necessity of religion

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