"Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib" says Carter

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In an interview with Der Spiegel, ex-President Jimmy Carter demonstrates once again his intellectual bankruptcy...

Der Spiegel wrote:

SPIEGEL: One main points of your book is the rather strange coalition between Christian fundamentalists and the Republican Party. How can such a coalition of the pious lead to moral catastrophes like the Iraqi prison scandal in Abu Ghraib and torture in Guantanamo?

Carter: The fundamentalists believe they have a unique relationship with God, and that they and their ideas are God's ideas and God's premises on the particular issue. Therefore, by definition since they are speaking for God anyone who disagrees with them is inherently wrong. And the next step is: Those who disagree with them are inherently inferior, and in extreme cases -- as is the case with some fundamentalists around the world -- it makes your opponents sub-humans, so that their lives are not significant. Another thing is that a fundamentalist can't bring himself or herself to negotiate with people who disagree with them because the negotiating process itself is an indication of implied equality. And so this administration, for instance, has a policy of just refusing to talk to someone who is in strong disagreement with them -- which is also a radical departure from past history. So these are the kinds of things that cause me concern. And, of course, fundamentalists don't believe they can make mistakes, so when we permit the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, it's just impossible for a fundamentalist to admit that a mistake was made.

Where in the world does Carter get these absurd ideas and draw these illogical conclusions? No wonder he was an utter failure as a President.

Note that Spiegel right away establishes a logical fallacy (Abu Ghuraib happened under watch Bush Administration....Fundamentalists are part of the Bush Administration....therefore, fundamentalists are responsible for Abu Ghuraib), which Carter blindly accepts. He then compounds his error by defending the illogic. How does a sincere belief in the correctness of your position lead to dehumanizing your opponent? I presume he has the same deeply-held Democrat beliefs...is he too then one step from dehumanizing Republicans? How many Christians, fundamentalist or not, consider those who disagree with them, as "sub-human"? And since when do fundamentalists consider themselves perfect or incapable of making mistakes?

I had, at one time, great respect for Jimmy Carter's moral beliefs and convictions (despite his incompetence as president), but as he ages even this one glimmer of rationality is diminishing.

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I don't know what TV channels you watch, but I've seen enough of the Trinity Broadcasting system to believe Mr. Carter is absolutely correct in his statement.

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Carter doesn't sound too far off-base to me, either.

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Re: "Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib&quot

Der Spiegel wrote:

[Carter:] And, of course, fundamentalists don't believe they can make mistakes, so when we permit the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, it's just impossible for a fundamentalist to admit that a mistake was made.

I think Bush's, Rumsfeld's and Cheney's obvious disgust or incapacity for admitting structural mistakes is indeed the trait of fundamentalists.

And this has indeed been played out pretty clearly re Abu Ghraib, about which Bush cs again demonstrated that exact refusal to acknowledge any structural causes or faults, insisting that it was all just the fault of a few bad apples.

I dont think this is a trait unique to religious fundamentalists, btw - ideological dogmatics show the same incapacity of self-criticism and self-reflection.

Unfortunately, Bush is both.

What Carter says here in this quote is NOT, note, that Christian fundamentalists did the Abu Ghraib torture. It's that fundamentalists are unable "to admit that a mistake was made" when something like that does happen. And that's a pretty obvious point to make.

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I don't see much wrong with Carter's views on fundie Christians, either.

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I didn't read anything in the interview that seemed out of place.

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Hard to say whether Carter or Slick KKKlintler was our worst president; they definitely have the two top spots locked, it's just a question of the order.

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Order doesn't matter as long as you put George W. Bush at the top.

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snood wrote:

I don't see much wrong with Carter's views on fundie Christians, either.

Think living in a Christian country is hard on free spirits and perverts and what not? Try living in a slammite country. Everything you'd ever want to do would be punishable to whipping, joints being cut off, or death via beheading.

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That's nice, gunga - anything to say about what was actually said in the actual launch post?

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Re: "Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib&quot

nimh wrote:

Der Spiegel wrote:
[Carter:] And, of course, fundamentalists don't believe they can make mistakes, so when we permit the torture of prisoners in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib, it's just impossible for a fundamentalist to admit that a mistake was made.

I think Bush's, Rumsfeld's and Cheney's obvious disgust or incapacity for admitting structural mistakes is indeed the trait of fundamentalists.

And this has indeed been played out pretty clearly re Abu Ghraib, about which Bush cs again demonstrated that exact refusal to acknowledge any structural causes or faults, insisting that it was all just the fault of a few bad apples.

I dont think this is a trait unique to religious fundamentalists, btw - ideological dogmatics show the same incapacity of self-criticism and self-reflection.

Unfortunately, Bush is both.

What Carter says here in this quote is NOT, note, that Christian fundamentalists did the Abu Ghraib torture. It's that fundamentalists are unable "to admit that a mistake was made" when something like that does happen. And that's a pretty obvious point to make.

I disagree that the incapacity to admit/acknowledge mistakes is a flaw reserved for fundamentalists and other dogmatics. I submit we all suffer the same flaw. In fact, I could argue that fundamentalists would be more prone to admit mistakes since they can rely on forgiveness (at least from God) for those mistakes.

Conversely, moral relativists would be more prone to a failure to admit mistakes because they perpetually find ways to rationalize their mistakes and failures.

Note that I am speaking in general terms....and exceptions might always be found. For example, you could argue that Bush is one of those exceptional fundamentalists that can't admit his mistakes. I just object to tarring all fundamentalists with that brush.

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I don't think that the trait of dehumanizing groups that are not your own is peculiar to the ethnocentrics, reliogiocentrics, or any other flavor of "centrics". From my observation we all do this to some extent......................with the fundies, it is merely a matter of a greater degree.

This propensity is the problem of lumping people into groups. If we throught in terms of individuals, atrocities such as what happened in Abu Graib wuld never have happened.

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Re: "Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib&quot

slkshock7 wrote:

In fact, I could argue that fundamentalists would be more prone to admit mistakes since they can rely on forgiveness (at least from God) for those mistakes.

Conversely, moral relativists would be more prone to a failure to admit mistakes because they perpetually find ways to rationalize their mistakes and failures.

Hm, well that's an angle I hadnt thougt of.

I'd opine the opposite logic is stronger though. Pragmatists and relativists are able to relativate their own opinions and beliefs as well. Being used to the awareness that things may not be what they seem and that different takes on a situation each have their merit, they won't be so invested in their own belief as to be loath to admit they had something wrong.

For a dogmatic or fundamentalist, on the other hand, his belief is not just some opinion, but the one and only possible truth. Moreover, to a religious fundamentalist, his belief is not just some personal belief, but the word of the Lord himself. How could he ever acknowledge a mistake in a Truth he ascribes to being from God himself?

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Carter is not far off base. IMO Christian fundementalists are no different than muslim extremsts.

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Re: "Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib&quot
[quote="nimh]
For a dogmatic or fundamentalist, on the other hand, his belief is not just some opinion, but the one and only possible truth. Moreover, to a religious fundamentalist, his belief is not just some personal belief, but the word of the Lord himself. How could he ever acknowledge a mistake in a Truth he ascribes to being from God himself?[/quote]

true...for arguments of theology and religious doctrine...not so true for social, political, foreign affairs or other worldly issues. A fundamentalist might feel that his worldly viewpoint is colored and guided by his beliefs in God's direction, but I'll assert he isn't of the opinion that he is flawless in worldly actions simply because of that same viewpoint.

From my own personal experience, I have made way too many mistakes in personal, social and professional relationships to still have any illusions that my religious beliefs somehow innoculate me from error.

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woiyo wrote:

Carter is not far off base. IMO Christian fundementalists are no different than muslim extremsts.

I take it you've seen Christian fundamentalists flying airplanes into skyscrapers and training their children to become suicide bombers?

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gungasnake wrote:

woiyo wrote:
Carter is not far off base. IMO Christian fundementalists are no different than muslim extremsts.

I take it you've seen Christian fundamentalists flying airplanes into skyscrapers and training their children to become suicide bombers?

Nope, Christian fanatics are unlike other religious fanatics. They are cool, calm, and collected and of course, do no harm.

http://profiler.hp.infoseek.co.jp/img/okurahoma/ntp10i.jpg

http://www.apphotomanagers.org/Images_global/Murrahbomb170.jpg

like these fine upstanding Christian boys.

http://www.2dorks.com/gallery/2001/Tim/bubbye.jpg

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/images/geuu_01_img0216.jpg

drink the kool aid gunga, please do

http://www.elsewhere.org/rant/images/jonestown/6.jpg

http://www.elsewhere.org/rant/images/jonestown/7.jpg

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Oklahoma City, huh?

One, it's commonly known that Saddam Hussein had a hand in that one and two, somebody was in a hell of a big hurry to hang McVay, as in "Dead men tell no tales".

Anybody who could blame that on Christianity or Christians isan idiot.

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It's.... wha....how...........huh? Saddam?

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littlek wrote:

It's.... wha....how...........huh? Saddam?

k, far right wing whackos like gunga actually have infantile minds and never ever think that they are wrong.

you might as well argue with an insane person as get idiots like him to admit that the basis for his beliefs are bogus bull$hit.

and gunga, you are completely and fully full of $hit

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"Christian Fundies responsible for Abu Ghuraib" says Carter

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