Empathy

Of course, since I said empathy is something that can be taught, I have
to believe that, and I do.

Empathy to me is an objective feeling of understanding someone else's situation, and with proper explanation and repetitive awareness of certain situations, one can learn to empathize.

Now, sympathy on the other hand is subjective and cannot be taught -
so I think. It is a feeling one shares with the person one sympathizes with.

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Re: Empathy

J_B wrote:

1) Is it learned, or inate?

2) Given a married couple where one is much more empathetic than the other, does the naturally empathetic partner 'rub off' on the other partner, or is it a waste of energy to try to be an influence?

Both.

We actually have special cells in our brains, called mirror cells, that fire in reflection of those of a person (even literature, or film) with whose emotional experiences we are empathising.

The ability can be fostered by our upbringing, or damaged, or even pretty much destroyed.

Some peple suffer from neurological disorders which damage or destroy their ability to empathise.

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One of the maddening aspects of most forms of galloping senility is the loss of empathy. Even sympathy becomes a rote process rather than a true emotion.

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Interesting.

dlowan, I'd be interested to hear your views on how trauma/abuse (not involving a physical injury to the head) can affect empathic ability.

Can it actually change the physical aspect of the brain that allows a person to feel empathy? In adults, even? To the point where therapy, treatment, etc. is only 'damage control' but can't essentially change the level of empathy a person has?

Is there a certain age where the connections become 'set' and resistant/unable to develop new empathy ability?

I have only questions. No answers. Confused

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I'm confused on empathy and sympathy. I thought sympathy is a little further away, as in, I can sympathize with your situation (your Mercedes in the shop again, whereas I have an old clunker.. still, I sympathize).

I empathize - I feel terrible that your house burned down - well imagine how I would feel and you probably feel.

Anyway, which ever one of those words means you can easily envision how that person feels, I think it can be fostered, which of course Dlowan said is clearly true, except for the neurologically damaged. i agree with wondering if there is a cutoff point where people will not increase in empathy.. or can age and experience continue increasing it.

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flushd wrote:

Interesting.

dlowan, I'd be interested to hear your views on how trauma/abuse (not involving a physical injury to the head) can affect empathic ability.

Can it actually change the physical aspect of the brain that allows a person to feel empathy? In adults, even? To the point where therapy, treatment, etc. is only 'damage control' but can't essentially change the level of empathy a person has?

Is there a certain age where the connections become 'set' and resistant/unable to develop new empathy ability?

I have only questions. No answers.

Brains need proper care to grow and develop properly. Therefore trauma and abuse, it is believed, act both negatively (ie do not allow the conditions for proper brain development) and positively (ie cause unhelpful changes in developing brains).

Good early attachment provides the best growth environment for human babies.....attunement and loving care (as well as proper nutrition etc of course) causes babies' brains to create rich conections between neurones, and allows for proper frontal cortex development (where we keep empathy and and a whole wealth of higher functions). Empathy and love literally provide the matrix for the cells to develop properly.

The "setness" is the subject of huge debate.

Certainly the earlier babies are removed from abusive or negectful or just plain incompetent parents into GOOD care, the better for their brains....their development cannot wait.

I think for some it becomes impossible to enable change past a certain point, and we are increasingly thinking the so called resilient child is largely a child who has been getting care from SOMEWHERE (think child carer workers, teachers, grandma, a neighbour etc.)

That being said, the brain appears more plastic than we had thought at various times eg good therapy, extremely informed and loving care can be observed to create neurological change.

Problem is, the REALLY damaged kids (of whom we see more and more in care) are adept at making themselves impossible to care for.

A bright spot is that, as we get to know more and more about what makes these kids tick, we can make more and more sense of their behaviour, and make better and better suggestions for how to help them.

Time will tell, I suppose, how many can be helped.

I guess what we encourage, and try to do in therapy, boils down to giving and giving and giving and giving and giving.......the empathy and attunement they did not have, as well as supporting them to learn boundaries and ways of behaving that do not destroy relationships and chances for them.

These kids need different forms of behavioural management than most kids....eg time out is generally NOT helpful for them.

This takes a looooooooooooooooooooong time, and they simply do not learn behaviour/consequence in the same natural way that most kids do.

Also, abuse and neglect can cause lower IQ and delayed physical development.

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ossobuco wrote:

I'm confused on empathy and sympathy. I thought sympathy is a little further away, as in, I can sympathize with your situation (your Mercedes in the shop again, whereas I have an old clunker.. still, I sympathize).

I empathize - I feel terrible that your house burned down - well imagine how I would feel and you probably feel.

Anyway, which ever one of those words means you can easily envision how that person feels, I think it can be fostered, which of course Dlowan said is clearly true, except for the neurologically damaged. i agree with wondering if there is a cutoff point where people will not increase in empathy.. or can age and experience continue increasing it.

I think the normal definition is sympathy is feeling FOR someone, empathy is feeling WITH someone.....and now we know that we literally DO feel with them......our brain activity will mirror theirs.

A good example is the reaction of men who see another fella kicked in the balls......it is not only their legs and faces that move in synch with the afflicted ones, their brains are firing away in synch too.

Here's a thing.

Look at the brain activity of mums who are well attached to their babies when they cry.......mirror neurones fire away, and whole areas of brain light up.

Mums whose ability to care has been damaged by their own trauma, or where attachment has been unable to develop..(usually go hand in hand) experience only fear when their babies cry.

Sad, isn't it?

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Very.

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Heartfelt thanks, dlowan.

That's rather depressing. I wanted to know, though. Crying or Very sad

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I don't think it's all depressing,

The Romanian orphans who were adopted are being studied carefully.

These are kids who suffered the worst life had to offer babies, as far as we know....a lot of them are doing well.

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Thanks, deb, distressing and hopeful at the same time.

Outside of abuse or detachment situations though, I think there are natural or innate differences in empathy, even within families. From my own unscientific observations of multiple generations of my family, my husbands family, and my children, I wonder if empathy is sometimes confounded with birth order. Not to say that firstborns aren't capable of empathy, but it appears to be a lesser part of their natural outlook - at least from what I've witnessed.

Looking at the couple then, where one is the more empathetic partner (adults in this situation), my feeling is that calling out examples of non-empathy (or lack of sympathy) by the more caring partner will have little, if any, effect on the outlook or behavior of the other. Sure, we can and should model whatever empathy we feel (I think it's a positive trait), but in a couple situation, I'm not convinced that pointing out where someone could be more empathetic/sympathetic will change anything.

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J_B wrote:

Thanks, deb, distressing and hopeful at the same time.

Outside of abuse or detachment situations though, I think there are natural or innate differences in empathy, even within families. From my own unscientific observations of multiple generations of my family, my husbands family, and my children, I wonder if empathy is sometimes confounded with birth order. Not to say that firstborns aren't capable of empathy, but it appears to be a lesser part of their natural outlook - at least from what I've witnessed.

Looking at the couple then, where one is the more empathetic partner (adults in this situation), my feeling is that calling out examples of non-empathy (or lack of sympathy) by the more caring partner will have little, if any, effect on the outlook or behavior of the other. Sure, we can and should model whatever empathy we feel (I think it's a positive trait), but in a couple situation, I'm not convinced that pointing out where someone could be more empathetic/sympathetic will change anything.

Hmmmmmm...that's a toughie.

Are you describing an attitude of "let's fix it" instead of listening and empathising (which often seems to be a male thing) or someone who just does not seem to care?

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J_B wrote

Quote:

Looking at the couple then, where one is the more empathetic partner (adults in this situation), my feeling is that calling out examples of non-empathy (or lack of sympathy) by the more caring partner will have little, if any, effect on the outlook or behavior of the other. Sure, we can and should model whatever empathy we feel (I think it's a positive trait), but in a couple situation, I'm not convinced that pointing out where someone could be more empathetic/sympathetic will change anything.

I really have found the opposite to be true, especially on a one-on-one
relationship, provided of course, the partner is willing to listen and change
which is not always the case. It's not so the calling out of non-empathy
as the explanation and discussion WHY one particular situation calls out
for more empathy.

So far, I'm successful with my child too. Children have to be taught
that there is something besides me, myself and I, and with pointing out
and explaining one encourages their awareness, thus empathy.

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The example that sparked this thread is a couple riding in a car. The husband has a short fuse when it comes to the driving habits of others. The wife puts herself in the position of the other driver, assumes he/she has a valid reason for whatever behavior was just exhibited and points it out to the husband.

I said if the husband screams, "MORON" at the windshield whether she's in the car or not, that he isn't trying to engage her and her attempts to teach him to be more empathetic to the other driver's plight are a waste of her energy. By engaging him, she, in effect, continues the discourse by not ignoring his outburst. If she doesn't like the interactions, then why have them?

C_Jane (as she indicated at the beginning of this thread) feels that the wife should continue to point out where the husband could be more empathetic and with enough reinforcement might come around and eventually stop his outburst.

So, in an adult who sees the world through his/her own lens, can empathy be learned?

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Yes, as I stated above.

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J_B wrote:

The example that sparked this thread is a couple riding in a car. The husband has a short fuse when it comes to the driving habits of others. The wife puts herself in the position of the other driver, assumes he/she has a valid reason for whatever behavior was just exhibited and points it out to the husband.

I said if the husband screams, "MORON" at the windshield whether she's in the car or not, that he isn't trying to engage her and her attempts to teach him to be more empathetic to the other driver's plight are a waste of her energy. By engaging him, she, in effect, continues the discourse by not ignoring his outburst. If she doesn't like the interactions, then why have them?

C_Jane (as she indicated at the beginning of this thread) feels that the wife should continue to point out where the husband could be more empathetic and with enough reinforcement might come around and eventually stop his outburst.

So, in an adult who sees the world through his/her own lens, can empathy be learned?

I don't think that's about empathy versus non empathy, so much, as about a number of other things...and the husband not responding to the wife's empathy for other drivers sounds more like one of those arguments where the more one partner says a, the more the other says b!

I do personally find someone yelling and screaming at other drivers causes tension and distress for me, but I would not be quick to label it an empathy issue, unless empathy is a problem in other areas of the fella's life.

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I'm not sure it's an empathy issue either, which is why I left the specific example out of the discussion originally. More generally, when two partners have different outlooks on life, one more empathetic/sympathetic than the other, I don't think the less empathetic/sypathetic/compassionate (whatever) partner will become more so by exposure. I don't think it 'rubs off' as I said at the beginning. Empathy, IMO, is associated with temperament and upbringing and isn't easily changed in an adult. Sure there are examples of life-changing experiences (surviving a near-fatal accident, for instance), resulting in a change in outlook. I do think the behaviors and responses can change, but not because of increased empathy.

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It's been my experience, unscientific, that if the "thing" which evokes empathy is tied in any way, shape or form to a man's ego or his sense of what a man is, then you can forget it. That's the attitude he developed balls on and all of the accusations of brutish behavior and cold-heartedness isn't going to change it. As a matter of fact, it will only stregnthen it alot of the time because being a brute, to some, is being "a man".

There is a degree of brutishness in most men.

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I guess we all have different experiences and it shows clearly. Perhaps
there is no rule what works or doesn't. Brutish, cold-hearted men are
not in my immediate life, so I don't have to deal with it, and professionally
I have other ways to combat such behavior.

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Empathy

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