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Suicide By a Friend

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:22 pm
to each their own....
I don't think I'd like a graphic record of a relatives suicide in my collection of videos.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:23 pm
Nor I. I don't want to see someone I love getting destroyed.
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CarbonSystem
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:36 pm
Some food for thought: I've read some stuides that say country music is involved in more suicides than any other.

Now I don't know what involved might mean, I don't think music can cause suicides, but it can influence.

Anyways, I thought it was interesting that it was country, but it makes sense.
The nostalgic type themes, almost like most all songs are written from the perspective of someone looking back on the life they used to have.






On suicide itself, I've always thought there was never a good reason to do it. But for some reason lately I've been realizing that maybe it's a bit silly for us to try and say whether suicide is a good or a bad thing when we know nothing about the afterall or in some people's perspective the lack thereof.

I think were far too uninformed to say whether or not suicide is a bad thing for people.

I've known a few people who have contimplated suicide, we saw the signs and helped them out, and thankfully they never went through with it, because the world would have missed them dearly.



In the end, we don't know enough about what happens after the line goes flat in order to say whether or not suicide is something to frown upon or not.

I just can't condone or reject the notion in one way or another.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:48 pm
It seems to depend on the person and circumstance whether suicide should be acceptable.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:54 pm
Farmerman, I still feel (irrational and unjustified) guilt over my mother's suicide. But I've come to agree with Nietzsche's view that while it is terrible to deprive people of their life it's worse to deprive them of their death.
I take (rational) comfort in the knowledge that I do not have to suffer unbearable pain. My death is mine to use.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 11:13 pm
Mc Cobb wrote:
I know how you feel the swan dive is a respectful poetic description. I would expect a brother to chose words with grace. It shows me your in good mental shape. Keep it up, and hey I would love to have my brothers last movements on earth on video. We tape births why not deaths?
edgarblythe wrote:
I don't want to see someone I love getting destroyed.
JLNobody wrote:
But I've come to agree with Nietzsche's view that while it is terrible to deprive people of their life it's worse to deprive them of their death.
I in no way mean to suggest I do not have the utmost reverence for life, only that it's not mine to give, not mine to take, not mine to judge; at least in an idealized sense.

My brother's reasons for taking his life remain obscure to me, at least in a pragmatic sense, because I was not in his shoes.

I would be fine with a celebration and chronicling of a life & death (which may well include audio and video), after all death is just as much a part of life as birth, and holds just as much symbolism and import.

Many (all?) cultures place great ritual and import on the death process. Here in our "modern" world we have (arguably) over-sanitized this process to our determent.

To embrace the inevitable facets of life is to be most alive.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:19 pm
Chumly,
"Many (all?) cultures place great ritual and import on the death process. Here in our "modern" world we have (arguably) over-sanitized this process to our determent.

To embrace the inevitable facets of life is to be most alive."

Again I appreciate your wise words. Indeed, to embrace everything that has passed--as well as the inevitabilities--is to achieve the deepest wisdom of Nietzsche's Amor Fati.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:46 pm
I'm sorry about your loss, edgar. I'm also sorry for the pain, whether it was emotional or physical, that afflicted your friend.

I've always felt that those with a terminal illness have no one to answer to for whatever path they choose for themselves, but I do tend to agree with farmer on the selfishness with of the act in others.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:46 pm
Nobody and Chumly--

New levels of respect and admiration.

I work with several chicks of varying ages and temperaments, and we were discussing suicide. (I hadn't said anything, but I was considering it, when 35-year-old, sort-of-macho-NASCAR-fan-flat-chested-pot-bellied girl begins saying very heatedly...)

"Well, my cousin said he was considering suicide and I reamed him out. I told him that was one of the most selfish things anyone can do, and he'd go straight to hell and that's where he'd belong, leaving behind sad family members, who would have to go through life wondering what they'd done wrong..."

No caring at all for what it feels like to prefer death.

I think we all would move heaven and earth to try to help change that reality for a loved one--but some people exist in a state of depression that is resistant to drug and cognitive therapy.

I find it sincerely hard to understand how anyone could be mad at a person who was obviously in such horrible pain.

I feel that Chumly and Nobody have healthy, loving perspectives on this issue. However, I am completely appalled at the branch of our family, who take pictures of family members in caskets. It's ghoulish to me. Cultural conditioning, I guess. But, if it's right for others, you know, ...<grimaces>

Chumly. I wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:55 pm
Perhaps the most sincere and justified selfishness is seen in some (not necessarily all) acts of suicide.
Thanks, Lash.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 01:59 pm
I agree, JLN, I don't think there we can categorize suicides into 'acceptable' and 'not'. It's a personal choice, made for selfish reasons which might include the thought of being selfless.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 02:02 pm
That was a nice thought, J_B.
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flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 03:21 pm
I'm sorry, edgar. I'm glad that you are able to find some peace with the decision your friend made.

I also have renewed respect for many of the members here. Wisdom, love, and sincere desire for understanding is what I see here.

My thoughts on suicide are mixed. I have not experienced the loss of someone close to myself in this way. However, a dear friend of mine lost his best friend by suicide. It came as a complete shock, and he is still struggling to come to terms with it.

What Chumly said about "To embrace the inevitable facets of life is to be most alive." rings true, and is told from a place of experience. I am coming to believe that the manner of death - how others are left in the wake - can often times makes it extremely difficult to accept some inevitables. Shock and trauma leads to anger. Also, there can be guilt.
This was the case with my friend. Also, religious beliefs and expectations of how the world works can cause extra trouble as well.

......
For a period of time I worked in a hospice. There was one lady there in particular who I will never forget. She had outlived all her family and friends. She was in her 90's. She was not bitter, angry about her illness, or suicidal. She had a sharp mind and could speak right to the bone of the matter. She rarely smiled, but she was nice to be around
I got to like her a lot, and I like to believe she didn't mind me either. There was some sort of connection. She didn't yell at me (you could often hear her yelling at the nurses).
One day, as we were sitting in the garden area, I picked her a flower.
I had noticed that her eyes would often turn to that particular patch of flowers when we would sit there. She had a spot.
She took the flower from me, and said "Thank you, darling. Now. I want to tell you a story."
I sat and waited for a story about her youth, or something along those lines.
Instead, she told me about how she wanted to die. She told me she was tired of life. She went into great detail about her daily routine, and how little it meant to her. She made it sound like it was an annoyance like a bad summer full of mosquitoes.
There was no self pity. There was not pain or tears expressed.
She was matter of fact. "I would like to die now."

What to say?
She changed my outlook on suicide and death forever.
I could really see her point of view.

I knew 'they' would not allow her to take actions like that. I knew the policies and my job. I knew she would not go to the lengths needed to commit suicide.

I still think of her. She was still alive when I left. These things are not to be judged morally by me - I strongly believe we each have a human right to decide what to do with our own lives.
Sometimes life is cruel in unexpected ways - which i have wondered about concerning Mrs. M. Our 'kindness' possibly being unkind in the end (?).
It is tough.

.......

Let there be peace for all. That's all I can say.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 03:52 pm
Thanks, Flushd. See how life experiences can deepen us?
I think the best coda to life is to die when we are ready. I'm so glad my father was truly ready. He said things pretty much like your friend did--he was going on 93. My mother was not quite ready, I suspect, even though she committed suicide, but she just could'nt stand life any further. That was not a good coda--but I am not referring to the act of suicide itself; I refer to the quality of life that made its termination necessary in her mind. It's not like she was fleeing from a situation of pain in her life; it was like fleeing from a painful life itself. Frankly, I am puzzled that she did not end it earilier.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 04:40 pm
JLNobody wrote:
..... I've come to agree with Nietzsche's view that while it is terrible to deprive people of their life it's worse to deprive them of their death.


Interesting idea. Could you explain what Nietzsche meant by that, in a little more detail, JL? Thanks.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 04:49 pm
flushd wrote:
....she told me about how she wanted to die. She told me she was tired of life. She went into great detail about her daily routine, and how little it meant to her. She made it sound like it was an annoyance like a bad summer full of mosquitoes.
There was no self pity. There was not pain or tears expressed.
She was matter of fact. "I would like to die now."

What to say?
She changed my outlook on suicide and death forever.
I could really see her point of view.

I knew 'they' would not allow her to take actions like that. I knew the policies and my job. I knew she would not go to the lengths needed to commit suicide.

I still think of her. She was still alive when I left. These things are not to be judged morally by me - I strongly believe we each have a human right to decide what to do with our own lives.
Sometimes life is cruel in unexpected ways - which i have wondered about concerning Mrs. M. Our 'kindness' possibly being unkind in the end (?).
It is tough.

.......

Let there be peace for all. That's all I can say.


Yes, I see it this way, too, flushd. I can understand that a person could feel this way. To have simply had enough of life & to want no more.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 04:57 pm
I cannot say with absolute confidence what Nietzsche meant, except to say that, according to him, a person's life is HIS property and not that of someone else--just as a woman's body is hers and not someone else's. One can try to persuade another person not to end his life, but if you fail in this effort, if he REALLY wants, or needs, to die because his life is too much of a liability for him IN HIS JUDGEMENT--and this will undoubtedly involve pain whether mental or physical--it would be CRUEL to force him to undergo that pain against his will.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 05:01 pm
Thank you for that, JL.
It's pretty much how I see it, too.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 05:30 pm
I am a bit surprised no one has mentioned people the like of Yukio Mishima. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about his death.

Ritual suicide
On November 25, 1970, Mishima and four members of the Tatenokai under a pretext visited the commandant of the Ichigaya Camp - the Tokyo headquarters of the Eastern Command of Japan's Self-Defense Forces. Once inside, they proceeded to barricade the office and tied the commandant to his chair. With a prepared manifesto and banner listing their demands, Mishima stepped onto the balcony to address the gathered soldiers below. His speech was intended to inspire them to stage a coup d'etat and restore the Emperor to his rightful place. He succeeded only in irritating them and was mocked and jeered. As he was unable to make himself heard, he finished his planned speech after only a few minutes. He stepped back into the commandant's office and committed seppuku. The act was to end in his ritual decapitation by Tatenokai member Masakatsu Morita. Morita, who was rumored to have been Mishima's lover, was unable to perform the decapitation properly: after several failed attempts, he allowed another Tatenokai member, Hiroyasu Koga, to finish the job. After Mishima was decapitated, Morita also attempted to commit seppuku and was beheaded by Koga.

Mishima prepared his suicide meticulously for a year and no one outside the group of hand-picked Tatenokai members had any indication of what he was planning. Mishima must have known that his coup plot would never succeed and his biographer, translator, and former friend John Nathan suggests that the scenario was only a pretext for the ritual suicide that Mishima always dreamed of. Mishima made sure his affairs were in order and even had the foresight to leave money for the defense at trial of the three surviving Tatenokai members.

His biography may be read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jul, 2006 10:31 am
How would you rationalize (assuming you would) his suicide in the context of this thread?
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