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Are the republicans out to abolish US social programs

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 08:28 am
Quote:
Fishin
Social Security, as an example, was NEVER intended to be the primary source of retirement income for every single person. The percentage of the population that was supposed to be eligible to collect was supposed to have been a small fraction. Yet any time any one proposes reforms to these programs the hue and cry goes out and everyone panics.


You miss the point the only reason as you say a small percentage of the population would receive SS was not due to eligibility. It was related to the average life span in 1936.
A small percentage of the population lived to or much beyond 65. I should add that it was enacted during the height of the depression and was as all social programs fought vigorously by the republicans. I have no doubt that the same mindset prevails among the republicans of today. How can we trust that they will come up with a fix for a system that is obviously broken?
For those of you who are too young to remember the depression saw people thrown out on the street and literally starving. I for one would never want to see that again. And I suppose if you had seen or experienced it you would have a completely different outlook.{ I am assuming that you hadn't } No matter what the federal government needs to do to avoid it. If we can find billions of dollars to give for foreign aid and to fight foreign wars we can find the money for social programs. That as far as I am concerned is where my tax dollar should be going.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 08:33 am
Scrat
What ammendment to the constitution prohibits the federal government from supporting social programs.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 08:51 am
I didn't miss the point there Au! It was included in the overall statement. The Average life span was acounted for by setting an age for eligibility. As the average life expectancy increased the eligibility age hasn't moved much so now we have a large percentage of the population that becomes eligible to collect vs. what was originally intended. This issue is one of the reforms that has been fought tooth and nail.

Like you, I'm all for social programs that help people and prevent them from becoming destitute. My "bitch" with Social Security is that it has gone well beyond that. Social Security is now taken for granted and many have not bothered to save seperately for their own retirements. They fully expect the Social Security system to be their source for income.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 09:19 am
fishin'
True many do not save or prepare for retirement. However, there are many more Americans who live from paycheck to paycheck and are unable to save. And consider the millions of Americans who had saved and due to the present economic situation have lost their jobs and with it their retirement funds. Those people who are in their fifties have very little chance of recouping even if the economy turns around. I am afraid that many people are in for very rough sledding when they come to retirement age. I have no answers just stating an unfortunate fact.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 11:04 am
au1929 wrote:
Scrat
What ammendment to the constitution prohibits the federal government from supporting social programs.

None. The text of the main body of the Constitution does not empower them to run social programs, and no amendment currently exists that changes that fact.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 12:54 pm
Meaning, prehaps, that every action neither required nor specifically granted is prohibited. Hard to believe such a restrictive document could survive over 200 years.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 01:42 pm
Roger - I'd have to look up which of the founding fathers wrote it, but the argument I remember runs along the lines that the enumeration of specific powers within the Constitution by definition denies the existence of general powers therein; if they had intended broad, general powers there would be no need to enumerate any specifically.

The founders also wrote at length explaining that the two main "catchalls" used to ignore this fact--the "necessary and proper" clause and the "general welfare" clause--were intended only in regards to those powers specifically enumerated.

I will be happy to dig up links to the specific documents within the Federalist Papers if anyone questions this. Cool
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Munch
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 09:58 am
Hey guys

I grew up in a house that was centered around economics. Contrary to what the Democrats and other Liberals would have you believe, minimum wage, affirmative actions, and other social services. I can get into that if you'd like.

Quote:
None. The text of the main body of the Constitution does not empower them to run social programs, and no amendment currently exists that changes that fact.


Some would argue that it is allowed under Clause 18:
Quote:
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper ...
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 10:21 am
Munch - Lots of people would make that argument, but none of them wrote the Constitution. Those who did write it argued that the "necessary and proper" clause was not intended as a catch-all.
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Munch
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 12:40 pm
Aside from the fact that that doesn't matter(edit: that being the fact that they interpreted it differently than the general concensus does today), I would have to disagree with you. The issue of necessary and proper was a big one. In one of the first things Washington signed into law (the creation of a central Bank) there was a big outcry to if it would be constitutional to do so. Washington set a precident by arguing that that clause allowed for the creation of things necessary and things proper, even though the constitution did not specifically say so.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:15 pm
Munch wrote:
Aside from the fact that that doesn't matter(edit: that being the fact that they interpreted it differently than the general concensus does today), I would have to disagree with you. The issue of necessary and proper was a big one. In one of the first things Washington signed into law (the creation of a central Bank) there was a big outcry to if it would be constitutional to do so. Washington set a precident by arguing that that clause allowed for the creation of things necessary and things proper, even though the constitution did not specifically say so.

On your first point (that it doesn't matter what the framers thought because we interpret it differently today) you need to look up the concept of original intent. To ascertain the intent of a law it is necessary to consider what a reasonable person living at the time the law was written would have understood it to mean. Of course, we need not fall back on that when we have the authors' writings to tell us what they meant.

Regarding setting up a central bank. The Constitution explicitly empowers the government to print money, levy taxes and regulate commerce between the states. The creation of a central bank could be argued to be "necessary and proper" to those ends. (This is the purpose of the "necessary and proper" clause--to authorize the government to do those things deemed necessary and proper to carry out those specific powers enumerated in the Constitution.)

Have you read the Federalist Papers? Are you unaware of Hamilton's and Madison's writings on the "necessary and proper" clause, or do you disagree with their assertions as to what they meant?
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Munch
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:37 pm
I think we actually agree with eachother, but we're arguing around the same bush.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 08:53 pm
Perhaps I read sloppily, but you seemed to be supporting the notion that the Constitution empowers the government to do anything and everything they wish under broad interpretations of narrowly intended clauses. I strongly disagree with that. If you somehow intended the opposite of what I think I read in your words, then yes, I suppose we agree.

Whether we agree or do not, I appreciate that we are doing so with courtesy; it is hard to come by here.

Regards,
Scrat
0 Replies
 
 

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