we say terrorists kill innocent people...

Terrorism is terrible. No doubt about that--so don't misunderstand me. We define terrorists as non-state combatants. What makes them more horrible that state-run combatants? What about state-sponsored terrorism? What does THAT mean? Can it be claimed that because they are sponsored by a state they are not terrorists? We also say that terrorists are worse that state-militarary forces because they (the terrorists) kill innocent civilians. I've never understood why we call civilians who condone official killing on their behalf "innocent" (except for children, of course). We killed hundreds of children, old people pets in our shock and awe of Bagdad (not to mention Hiroshima), and Isreal is doing it now. In what sense are such acts not terroristic and therefore morally superior to the horrendous acts of Islamist terrorists? ALL FORMS OF MILITARY ACTION ARE TERRIBLE. WE MUSTN'T JUSTIFY ONE WITH OUR DEFINITION OF THE OTHER.
The matter becomes more complex when we bring into the discussion the justification of self-defense. Bush says he's defending America in his attack on Bagdad. We probably used the same pretext when we attacked Mexico.
"Informal" terrorism is HORRIBLE, but so is "official" war.

Terrorism is terrible. No doubt about that--so don't misunderstand me. We define terrorists as non-state combatants. What makes them more horrible that state-run combatants? What about state-sponsored terrorism? What does THAT mean? Can it be claimed that because they are sponsored by a state they are not terrorists? We also say that terrorists are worse that state-militarary forces because they (the terrorists) kill innocent civilians. I've never understood why we call civilians who condone official killing on their behalf "innocent" (except for children, of course). We killed hundreds of children, old people pets in our shock and awe of Bagdad (not to mention Hiroshima), and Isreal is doing it now. In what sense are such acts not terroristic and therefore morally superior to the horrendous acts of Islamist terrorists? ALL FORMS OF MILITARY ACTION ARE TERRIBLE. WE MUSTN'T JUSTIFY ONE WITH OUR DEFINITION OF THE OTHER.
The matter becomes more complex when we bring into the discussion the justification of self-defense. Bush says he's defending America in his attack on Bagdad. We probably used the same pretext when we attacked Mexico.
"Informal" terrorism is HORRIBLE, but so is "official" war.

Brandon, you are suffering from hardening of the categories.

Brandon9000 wrote:

If you want to argue that all wars are bad, and that the US is simply in the category of countries that sometimes wage war, then I am not interested in arguing. However, it's not terrorism, and it's not even remotely in the same moral category as when someone detonates a bomb in a discotheque. They do it, we don't.

Hmm. I guess American soldiers are all paragons of virtue? The shining example all of mankind should look at and admire? Dare I mention Abu Graib?

Brandon, you've all but hijacked this thread with you're insistence that Israel and America are in no way to be considered terrorists.

You're demanding examples for with there are dozens, and millions of references on the internet. Holy crap, just read todays news in Lebanon or go to the UN and read what people are saying about all the innocents killed.

I was wondering why this thread was brought up in religion and spirituality instead of the political or philosophical. But with your blind faith approach and obstinance to see the bleeding obvious, maybe its in the right place after all.

Can you really not see any of the examples????

This will turn into a very, very long thread if we have to cite example after example,

...heres another, the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a link for your reading is provided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

najmelliw wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

If you want to argue that all wars are bad, and that the US is simply in the category of countries that sometimes wage war, then I am not interested in arguing. However, it's not terrorism, and it's not even remotely in the same moral category as when someone detonates a bomb in a discotheque. They do it, we don't.

Hmm. I guess American soldiers are all paragons of virtue? The shining example all of mankind should look at and admire? Dare I mention Abu Graib?

So you have some evidence that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were ordered by the American government? If you do, present it.

Brandon9000 wrote:

najmelliw wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

If you want to argue that all wars are bad, and that the US is simply in the category of countries that sometimes wage war, then I am not interested in arguing. However, it's not terrorism, and it's not even remotely in the same moral category as when someone detonates a bomb in a discotheque. They do it, we don't.

Hmm. I guess American soldiers are all paragons of virtue? The shining example all of mankind should look at and admire? Dare I mention Abu Graib?

So you have some evidence that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were ordered by the American government? If you do, present it.

Once again, we are going off topic, but, let me point out I used the words: AMERICAN SOLDIERS. As for the pathetic way that the US army top and government tried to twist around to make sure the blame fell fully on the US soldiers stationed there, I won't go into that. I was talking about the way American soldiers seem to treat others. You damn the man who uses a bomb to blow up other civilians, but you are silent when it comes to those precious US soldiers committing atrocity after atrocity in a prison. Or is torture allright, as long as it is done by someone in an US uniform?

Trying to argue with this guy is like trying to argue with an acorn.

Really!

The guy is dense as steel.

He...and apparently this real life character...simply do not have the intellectual wherewithal to understand the argument being made.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Trying to argue with this guy is like trying to argue with an acorn.

Really!

The guy is dense as steel.

He...and apparently this real life character...simply do not have the intellectual wherewithal to understand the argument being made.

Name calling and repeating that you're smarter than your opponent don't qualify as arguments. Just for laughs, I dare you to summarize your argument.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Trying to argue with this guy is like trying to argue with an acorn.

Really!

The guy is dense as steel.

He...and apparently this real life character...simply do not have the intellectual wherewithal to understand the argument being made.

Name calling and repeating that you're smarter than your opponent don't qualify as arguments. Just for laughs, I dare you to summarize your argument.

My argument is that you are dense as steel...and trying to argue with you is like trying to argue with an acorn.

Unless, of course, you meant to ask for a summary of something else...which apparently you are too dense to ask for in coherent form.

Terrorists, suicide bombers, are individuals as well. They claim they are at war, so in what way is a suicide bomb attack any different then the marines at Abu Ghraib? By your OWN words : Individual soldiers have committed atrocities in every war.

Brandon, you've all but hijacked this thread with you're insistence that Israel and America are in no way to be considered terrorists.

Your characterization of someone posting on topic who doesn't agree with you. Pathetic.

You're demanding examples for with there are dozens, and millions of references on the internet. Holy crap, just read todays news in Lebanon or go to the UN and read what people are saying about all the innocents killed.

Inncent people have been killed in every war. Now give me an example of non-combatants being targetted deliberately, as the Palestinians do..

I was wondering why this thread was brought up in religion and spirituality instead of the political or philosophical. But with your blind faith approach and obstinance to see the bleeding obvious, maybe its in the right place after all.

I'm an atheist you imbecile.

Can you really not see any of the examples????

This will turn into a very, very long thread if we have to cite example after example,

To this point, despite my numerous requests for examples of occasions in recent history when the US military has targetted non-combatants, not one single one has been given.

...heres another, the Sabra and Shatila massacre, a link for your reading is provided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Not an example of an action by either the US or Israel, you fool.

bore "Indirect responsibility" and recommended his dismissal from the post of Defense Minister; it also recommended the dismissal of Director of Military Intelligence

So, apparently you have no ability to actually defend your viewpoint, and, thus, substitute insults as a smoke screen. Enough said.