we say terrorists kill innocent people...

Frank Apisa wrote:

Bartikus wrote:
[I appreciate your sincere concern about any paranoia I may be experiencing and if it makes you feel better I will talk to a professional about that who has been educated enough to diagnose and treat such a thing.

I did'nt think your remark was in any way a personal attack towards me if that helps to put your mind at ease.

I don't know what you and yours are capable of but I can assure you my head is not up my ass or anyone else's for that matter.

You don't have to use small words or short sentences Frank....I think your doing just fine.

Take care now....buh bye.

Good response, Bart.

:wink:

Gonna go play some golf now.

Hope you have a great day.

I'm glad you liked it but you know....you still have'nt addressed my question nor any of my following statements.

Maybe after a good game of golf and a chance to clear your mind.....you would be willing to share some useful insights and pearls of knowledge regarding these.

:wink:

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
[I appreciate your sincere concern about any paranoia I may be experiencing and if it makes you feel better I will talk to a professional about that who has been educated enough to diagnose and treat such a thing.

I did'nt think your remark was in any way a personal attack towards me if that helps to put your mind at ease.

I don't know what you and yours are capable of but I can assure you my head is not up my ass or anyone else's for that matter.

You don't have to use small words or short sentences Frank....I think your doing just fine.

Take care now....buh bye.

Good response, Bart.

:wink:

Gonna go play some golf now.

Hope you have a great day.

I'm glad you liked it but you know....you still have'nt addressed my question nor any of my following statements.

Maybe after a good game of golf and a chance to clear your mind.....you would be willing to share some useful insights and pearls of knowledge regarding these.

:wink:

I thought I answered everything you asked...but if I missed something...ask again and I will respond.

(Very difficult course. Broke 90. I'm happy!)

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Let's not go into what is the ultimate innocence. That's too big.

If a maniac comes into the mall shouting that he'll blow it up with you in it because america, norway, or whichever country you live in, has invaded his country and his family has been killed as a result.

Could you honestlr say "I had nothing to do with that"?

That is the thing I wanted to debate, and it is in this matter I am questioning our innocence.

It is my belief that if I live in a country that participates in war (with all the shyt it encompasses) and I do nothing to voice my disagreement, I am as guilty of the crimes as the one who was "just wathcing the door during the gang rape".

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or to put it in another way: Is indifference a crime?

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Why does it seem everyone wants to blame everything on someone else? The responsibility lies on the person that commits the act. Plain and simple.

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All well and good Arella, but what about the times when cruelty is not doing anything?
When not to commit an act is what is immoral? There are such times, and we rarely know about the. After all, we did noting.

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Cyracuz wrote:

If a maniac comes into the mall shouting that he'll blow it up with you in it because america, norway, or whichever country you live in, has invaded his country and his family has been killed as a result.

Could you honestlr say "I had nothing to do with that"?

why maniac, instead of freedom fighter or martyr? anyway, i had little to do with the invasion of Iraq, if that's what you're alluding to. i voted democrat in the last 2 presidential elections--and so did about half the voters--but i would get blown up regardless. it's true i have paid taxes, but out of a federal budget of $2.7 trillion, defense is around $500 bilion, including $80 billion supplemental for Iraq and Afghanistan, not even 20% of the total.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/budget06/budget06Agencies.html

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Hmmm... maybe I'll write a letter to my government and say that I will not pay anymore taxes until I am satisfied that the money is not used for warfare and related things.

I doubt it would do much good though.

It would be a quiet rebellion, a case of civil disobedience. I'd be ruined, sent to jail possibly, all because I didn't want to aid the warmongers.

But fantasies aside, the fact that our productivity is aimed at such destructive ends is disturbing in my opinion. (Not saying that all ends are destructive, or that it is where we aim, just that it is where we get to time after time)

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the money could be spent developing alternative sources of power that don't create greenhouse gases & would reduce dependence on foreign oil, but that might not bring about democracy in Iraq. (not that i think countries ought to be invaded in order to make them democratic, but that's what we're trying to do in Iraq, supposedly)

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Why this obsession with power? Do we not have enought power? Why do we need so much more of it?

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Innocent victims should always be seen as 'in connection to the terrorist and his motives.' Otherwise, no one is innocent(yes, except for children. And Forrest Gump). For all we know, several terrorist attacks may well have killed murderers and rapists. But as long as those civilians have in no way acted in such a way that it gave the terrorist an excuse to attack (As if an excuse could ever be found, but still), such a civilian should be considered an innocent victim.
With soldiers the things may be less easily discerned, as it could be argued that they work for an instance that may have oppressed groups of people the terrorist either descends from or is greatly envolved with.

NAj.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Why this obsession with power? Do we not have enought power? Why do we need so much more of it?

i would need a lot less of it, if i could be doing this at home. instead, i drive around 45 minutes in heavy traffic twice a day to my cubicle. so in the sense of being a consumer of oil, i can't claim innocence. on the other hand, practically anyone who buys US made products is indirectly supporting US oil consumption.

i tried to buy a hybrid vehicle, but they were either too small or too expensive. even if all US cars were hybrids, i imagine the US would still be the world's biggest oil consumer, but it wouldn't be 25% like it is now.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb1110.html

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I agree yitwail

Here in Norway US products are readily at hand. There's a macdonalds in every place where a thousand or more people live, there's coca cola, marlboro, US cars. On TV there are american soaps, films and gameshows on 24/7 on many channels (not just the US ones we recieve via sattelite. The list goes on.

In fact, americanization of our culture has been an issue for quite some time.

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yitwail wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:
Why this obsession with power? Do we not have enought power? Why do we need so much more of it?

i would need a lot less of it, if i could be doing this at home. instead, i drive around 45 minutes in heavy traffic twice a day to my cubicle. so in the sense of being a consumer of oil, i can't claim innocence. on the other hand, practically anyone who buys US made products is indirectly supporting US oil consumption.

i tried to buy a hybrid vehicle, but they were either too small or too expensive. even if all US cars were hybrids, i imagine the US would still be the world's biggest oil consumer, but it wouldn't be 25% like it is now.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb1110.html

Which means if you continue to purchase gas....you are probably aiding terrorism in some way..... according to some.

You could always become Amish (they don't elect or pay taxes either) or as Cyracuz would say....just remain guilty of indifference.

The Amish live a very strict religious lifestyle.

Just think of it..... 9/11 would never have happened if only the internal combustion engine was never invented.

See......science is bad. Amish is good.

talkers. yap yap yap

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Bartikus

I am saying that indifference can sometimes be a cause for guilt.

The amish may claim to be innocent of the world's troubles, but if they are, they are so by choice, wich means that they are not indifferent.

But to say that science is bad is to go too far. Science just is, and this objectivity allows it to be seen and both ways.

But science has never been used with a motivation to do evil; no scientist ever seeks to destroy the world. His mind may be twisted, but he thinks he's making the world better, doing good.
The creation of lethal viruses and other biological weapons was motivated by a chain of reasoning that concluded that it was good to make these weapons.
Otherwise it would never have been done.

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"Innocent victims" are part and parcel of war.

Every war has 'em...and has 'em in abundance.

And there are no good guys if "killing innocent victims" is a criteria...not "us"; not "we"; not "them" not "they." If "killing innocent victims is used to score...there are no good guys.

Do you think there were no "innocent victims" in Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?

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Cyracuz wrote:

Bartikus

I am saying that indifference can sometimes be a cause for guilt.

The amish may claim to be innocent of the world's troubles, but if they are, they are so by choice, wich means that they are not indifferent.

But to say that science is bad is to go too far. Science just is, and this objectivity allows it to be seen and both ways.

But science has never been used with a motivation to do evil; no scientist ever seeks to destroy the world. His mind may be twisted, but he thinks he's making the world better, doing good.
The creation of lethal viruses and other biological weapons was motivated by a chain of reasoning that concluded that it was good to make these weapons.
Otherwise it would never have been done.

I was joking about science being bad.

I have actually been pissed off about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I wrote a letter to the President shortly after 9/11 suggesting we send aid to these countries and try to make some kind of difference for those people in a positive way.....without all the killing and bombs and stuff.

If our government wanted to covertly send spies into those countries to infiltrate Al-Queda and take them out by assasination as opposed to what my government has been doing.......I would be down with that approach.

These groups are referred to as highly armed and highly trained "gangs".

When my government wanted to take down the mafia or other gangs....they did'nt drop 2000lb bombs in order to do it. They found other ways.

I feel for the victims in Iraq and Afghanistan (especially those not taking up arms against others).......they kinda remind me of the people in the world trade center. Kids...grandparents....the disabled.

WTF is the world coming to?

Sometimes the worst part of it all is that even when a person wants to make a difference for the better.....at times....it seems hopeless.

But......nothing is hopeless..... and it's not because of the 'good' guys.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

"Innocent victims" are part and parcel of war.

Every war has 'em...and has 'em in abundance.

And there are no good guys if "killing innocent victims" is a criteria...not "us"; not "we"; not "them" not "they." If "killing innocent victims is used to score...there are no good guys.

Do you think there were no "innocent victims" in Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?

Your right Frank....every nation has blood on it's hands.

Who turns the other cheek?

So few are able to do so even on these forums. Even when it's just words from someone you don't even know.

It's sad really.

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
"Innocent victims" are part and parcel of war.

Every war has 'em...and has 'em in abundance.

And there are no good guys if "killing innocent victims" is a criteria...not "us"; not "we"; not "them" not "they." If "killing innocent victims is used to score...there are no good guys.

Do you think there were no "innocent victims" in Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki?

Your right Frank....every nation has blood on it's hands.

Who turns the other cheek?

So few are able to do so even on these forums. Even when it's just words from someone you don't even know.

It's sad really.

It is sad, Bart.

Perhaps, though, it is part of whatever it is that caused us to become the dominant life form on the planet. Perhaps it not only is an integral part of our make up...but an essential one as well.

When the trait translates into what governments and societies do...it gets very, very ugly.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Let's not go into what is the ultimate innocence. That's too big.

If a maniac comes into the mall shouting that he'll blow it up with you in it because america, norway, or whichever country you live in, has invaded his country and his family has been killed as a result.

Could you honestlr say "I had nothing to do with that"?

That is the thing I wanted to debate, and it is in this matter I am questioning our innocence.

It is my belief that if I live in a country that participates in war (with all the shyt it encompasses) and I do nothing to voice my disagreement, I am as guilty of the crimes as the one who was "just wathcing the door during the gang rape".

Innocence and guilt flow both ways. Taking it to the broad extremes that you have suggested, I might not be able to say "I had nothing to do with that". But I could certainly say that "Had your country not been harboring terrorists (or had designs on WMD), we would not be in your country and your family would not be dead. In fact, your guilt is worse than mine, since you did nothing to stop the extemists your country harbored, and as a result, 3000 of my countrymen died. It was that neglect on your part that caused our invasion that killed your family."

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we say terrorists kill innocent people...

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