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Look In The Mirror

 
 
Lightwizard
 
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Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 12:14 pm
The writer may have fundamentalist or purist doctrines when discussing art but it hasn't a great deal of credibility in this day and age. Duchamp's urinal also turned the art world topsy turvy (literally) as to what is defined as art in the first place. I have some Bauhaus designed very useful furniture that I consider more qualified to be called art than some of the non-useful art that adorns (or should I say forlorns) some walls of those with questionable taste.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 05:13 pm
art
LW, who are you referring to as the "the writer" who has fundamentalist/purist views on art?
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 05:36 pm
The "writer" at the head of the topic (unidentified?)
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Thu 29 May, 2003 07:34 pm
art
I believe that would be Fatima10.
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Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 12:17 am
The source of the original quote is Oscar Wilde. My initial response was to what I interpreted his purist view to be.

I guess we should have defined what kind of art we're discussing. All kinds, or just painting, sculpture, music, and writing. This makes a tremendous difference when we talk about the utilitarian aspects of art.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 02:06 pm
art
The aesthetic shape of utilitarian objects is a central concern in the world of design. But while it is extremely important, it must make concessions--even subordinate itself--to matters of function. In fine art, design is central, but it is also not the entire goal. What remains in fine art is, I find, inherently unfathonable or mysterious. Sorry to sound like a romantic in this matter, but I've looked through many books on the philosophy of aesthetics and art with the goal of de-mystifying them--but to no avail.
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Roberta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 09:53 pm
JL, Why do I get the feeling that I'm talking to myself? Avatars.

I could not agree more about the unfathomable in art. The mysterious. The take-your-breath-away or bring-a-tear to-your- eye aesthetic. I don't think such things can be demystified. Not sure want them to be.

What I do know is that there's a Rembrandt self-portrait at the Frick Museum that speaks to me across the centuries. And when I viewed Michelangelo's David, I gasped and wept. Why? Quien sabe? Mind touching mind? Heart touching heart? Dare I say soul touching soul? Mystical experiences.
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Fatima10
 
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Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 11:10 pm
I have been away too long!
Please excuse me for not having any interaction in the past few days. As can be said, I was otherwise occupied. ... In the reading of what has been written since I last read this discussion, many fine 'essays' have been posted.

Matters that go to the core of the subject have been raised. These points give answers; others, more raised questions, and as I believe Roberta pointed out, just not to be answered......As I understood her reply to be in the case of the the demystification of art. I think then art WOULD be useless, in most cases.

For me, so much of the 'usefulness' of art is intangible. Mystical. Thought provoking. Unlike mathematics, is there a Correct answer to "Art"? I must answer a resounding "NO!"

Is it not the wonder of the intrigue; the emotional effect art can produce; questions it probes; the limits it challenges, a prodding of our minds and psyches, that spurs us humans with the NEED to produce art? In this, there is no delineation between utilitarian, aesthetically pleasing objects, compared to commercial art, fine art or other categories of art not mentioned.

I do not feel as if I could play, 'catch up', at this point. At the least, without being a bore, to the additional postings. However, this particular posting by lightwizard, hit the note intrigued me, after reading "The Prologue", between ten to twenty times, lightwizard addresses a significant point, I believe.


Lightwizard wrote:
The writer may have fundamentalist or purist doctrines when discussing art but it hasn't a great deal of credibility in this day and age.


One of my unspoken questions, was this *very* statement. The writer was Oscar Wilde, as already reported. This is the Prologue to Dorian Grey, which I believe <????> was his only published novel.

Without question, I think Mr. Wilde was a purist and a fundamentalist. He is not our contemporary. He was a man who wrote for his time, more often. for BEFORE his time. Yet, I question, is there not still credibility to his words, 'in this day and age'? In light of a world of ideas, a world that art seeks to create, a world that does not exist, if only in our minds....would his statements be any less true? As to credibility, how can there be credibility in thoughts on an intangible subject?

This is not a disagreement to your statement, Lightwizard, but rather, you simply raised more questions in my mind!

As to the statement about Balhaus vs. art hanging on walls.... onn this, I maybe able to top you. There are drinking glasses that I own, purchased at Marshall's, that I truly believe surpass much that masquerades as art. Yet, then, is that not another value judgment on my part? With NO answer? I feel like the proverbial cat chasing its tail.....

Thank you~
fatima10
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Fatima10
 
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Reply Fri 30 May, 2003 11:28 pm
Hangers: Utillitarrian Only or, possibly ART?
Mary Cat, what a great analogy! The hanger 'thing' is tickling my mind. I purchase hangers for their beauty. My closet is arranged so that it is not only utilitarian. When I enter my closet, I am delighted, or sometime not: when it is messy, by the interaction of the hangers one to another. Then the interaction of ta hanger and the piece of clothing is is so kindly keeping unwrinkled, in a lovely manner. Your questions made absoulte sense, to me, at least

marycat wrote:
I don't think art is necessarily useful. I don't think art is necessarily useless. I don't believe that usefulness affects artfulness either way. I believe that some pieces of art can be used in other ways besides pure aesthetic appreciation, and some pieces can not.

JL, can you explain why you think that art is necessarily useless, and why ordinary objects can not be artful?

If you took a piece of mahogony and carved it beautifully and uniquely into a coat hanger with an intricate scene of a village, say, with different people and houses and stores all along the body of the hanger, would it be wrong to hang a coat on it? Or would it be wrong to create such a beautiful hanger, when it by nature cannot be art, because it is fashioned also as a useful object? Would it be art if the carving were designed to hang on a wall instead of in the closet? Why can't it be art if the same carving is designed to bring beauty to every day activities?

(Did those questions make sense?)
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 09:24 am
It does boil down to Mr. Wilde making more than one mistake in his rampant egotism, doesn't it? To pronounce absolutes, one must have the innate arrogance of a fool no matter how profound the statements appear to be. Ah, well, still one of my favorite writers (although I think they mangled "The Importance of Being Ernest" in the latest remake).

There is good commercial or design art as well as good fine art. There is also bad commercial or design art as well as bad fine art. Because the market has amalgamated the two (a la Kinkaid and his ilk), one has to be objective into considering the final product. Art is a product and it's in the marketing as to what calibre the art truly is.

I also have sets of Italla glassware (once sold it in one of my stores) as well as Orrefors. You can't deny they are sculptural even though they follow the function of holding a beverage.

I guess if Wilde found his plays useless then he didn't expect the resulting laughter resulting in an elevated appreciation of the human folly to be useless. I don't think so.
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Sat 31 May, 2003 09:25 am
(BTW, covering up blank boring walls with great art that one appreciates is hardly useless).
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Vivien
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 12:41 pm
'rampant egotism' - lovely phrase and very accurate - Wilde took a pose and deliberately made provocative outrageous statements - ideal for provoking a discussion such as this.
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 03:29 pm
truth
LW, Rolling Eyes That's true, of course. But this would be like comparing the practical use of a map to arrive at one's destination with breathing in order to get there alive.
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cobalt
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 06:13 pm
Followed with interest all the interactions thus far to this post. If I had not learned it was Wilde, I would have thought the author perhaps Dali, equally pompous and often contradictory.

I am firmly in the "Art is vital and essential" camp. When I move, it cannot be home without art on the walls. And it is the first thing I put into my new digs, even before TP, lol! If I have $2.00 I will buy something to do with Art (in all its' forms) over food. Then, how could I say it is "useless"? To imply function is more important than art is to say that the cats' ears are more essential to the cat than it's tail. Don't agree that Art is all feelings and thoughts. But I do agree that Art in my terms does necessitate a two-way street of some sort. Hopefully it is between two animate 'objects'" sentient folks, ha ha! But, if it is only the dialog of the creator/artist and their own experience in their creation, well I'd still grant it the Art status IF that artist recognized it so.


Thanks fatima for a great thread!
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 07:37 pm
truth
Cobalt, good points. But let me note (a small, peripheral point, I know) that I use to have a manx cat (a tailess feline) who defintely valued his ears more than his tail. Laughing
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Fatima10
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 10:23 pm
Oscar WHO????????
Vivien's post will make me admit to this.

Purposely, I tried to Veil Mr. Wilde's identity, as the author. Yet I had posted Wilde as the writer of these words in a discussion that proceeded this one.

Why, you may ask. To have a discussion where the words, thoughts, statements, mis-statements, humility, arrogance, stand for themselves. It was my belief that with the knowledge of who wrote this Prologue, would colour or prejudice us, in our thoughts. After all, is it not true that Oscar was, perhaps, the Andy Warhol of his time? He was infamously, famous?

Perhaps I am completely off, in my comparison of the two men as being infamously famous. Mr. Warhol, albeit his contribution to the art world, not unlike Mr. Wilde's contribution to the literary world.....was famous for being famous. Perhaps Truman Capote would be a closer comparison. However, from my readings, Mr. Capote sought fame and the luxuries of fortune...without much work in between.

JLNobody, that is the funniest saying! I will ponder on that one for awhile!

fatima10
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cobalt
 
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Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2003 10:49 pm
Oh poor pussycat! No tale to tell. Well THAT wags the dog on our discussion! Very Happy
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Lightwizard
 
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Reply Tue 3 Jun, 2003 08:33 pm
To wit, J.L. has done well in topping Mr. Wilde.
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2003 11:14 am
If by the offerred text, we are allowed to be pompous; I will oblige.

First a little defining of the subject in my eyes:

Art is to me all art; that is all artistic endeavour, be it literature, music, painting, etc., ................
Art is all things - life "is" art!

My personal definition: Art is "emotional communication".

That said, art is not the mere decoration of walls, the prettying of drab, the sweetening of sour lives via a mere talent for propinquitus combinations that give pleasure to the senses.
Art and culture is what humankind is "about"; it is us in all our glory, our finest hour, our lowest depths, our closest encounter with infinity.

We consume art, as we consume food, in order to survive, and to give sustenance to our human psyches.

We discuss art as a deceit, giving us perhaps a degree of insight into the machinations of the artist, or the technology of the process, but never to understand the "art" of the work; this we feel, we sense, we infuse, we live!

And most important; by the art that we create, and the art we adopt as our own, we define ourselves, and forge a bond with eternity.
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2003 11:19 am
And jLN; I must add your "Manx cat" comment is most definitely "art"! Laughing
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