Violent Tantrums

A few questions shewolf:
a) For how long has she gone to daycare?
b) Have the temper tantrums only started after enrollment in daycare?
c) Does Bean throw a tantrum with you only, or also with Mr. hewolf?
d) How is she behaving on the weekends vs. during the week?

One reason could be that they have a different discipline schedule at
school, and she is confused and frustrated.

Or she has separation anxiety, and no other outlet for her fears.

The rule is always: Compliment and reward appropriate behavior and
ignore her bad behavior - just don't pay any attention to it. Should
she bang her head or try to injure herself, distract her or redirect her
outlet of anger. Take a bowl of water outside and tell her, she can
splash all she wants until she's happy again, and let her be.

You also can hold her in your arms, if she's trying to hurt herself. Just
hold her until she's calmed down, but don't talk to her though, pay no
attention to her outbursts, just hold her.

a) about 4 weeks

b) Yes

c) Anyone. She even threw one at school

d) nothing else has changed except her ability and desire to do things " by herself' things I wouldnt have normally let her, but she has shown me that she knows how and these are things they do at school so I gave her the room to do that.
But that is it.



I have tried holding her, and she kicks, pushes, bites, and just gets as physical as her little body can.
It is kind of scary. She gets so mad she is gasping for air, and throwing herself into things .

It has been exactly 5 days since she started doing this and I have yet to find a trigger.

Once , it was almost nap time and I think she was just tired

Once , I told her to hold my hand while heading to the car and she didnt want to. She wanted to walk in line like they do at school and the parking lot was too busy to allow that

Today , she was jumping in the kitchen chair and I asked her to sit down right . Had her turn around and let her finish her food. She stood up again and I told her that if she didnt sit down the right way, she would have to go to her booster chair.
She didnt.... so I moved her to her booster chair.
She cried a bit and after about a minute I asked her if she stillwanted to eat and she said no, so I took her out and she threw herself on the floor. Hit her head pretty good, that pissed her off.

And off the tantrum went.
I had to put her in her high chair and hold her arms so she would topple herself over.
It is like a momentum.
Once she gets going she just wont stop until she is breathless..



this is the strangest behavior.

Ah yes, she gets frustrated because she is allowed certain tasks in
school, and at home she's not, so she's testing the waters.

Here is an article I found quite interesting and helpful, especially the
passage where 2 year olds are able to understand far more than they
are capable of expressing themselves as they only have begun to
speak a few sentences.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotions/behavior/tantrums.html

Sounds to me like she is somehow dealing with feelings too big for her little emotional regulation system and she needs help with that, not the ignoring you do with "I want" tantrums.


I would firstly strongly suggest that you show empathy with what she is experiencing, and try to match her level of affect with your empathic response....(like you do when interacting with a baby...) you know..."You're REALLY, REALLY upset....but mummy is here to help you....just reflect her feelings without trying to stop her at that stage.

Oddly, sometimes this empathic response helps avert the storm...think of it as doing what you do when you see your baby is starting to lose it, and you show attunement, and this helps them settle again, because they know you are there with them in their distress and will help them with it.


If she is hurting herself/others.things..I would stay empathic, but let her know that you will do your job, which is keeping her and everyone safe.


If you need to hold her, (and it sounds like you may do, and that this would be helpful) it sometimes helps to have a cushion to help protect you from her struggles...sometimes plopping a kid in a beanbag, if you have one, and sort of encompassing her from behind helps.....you know to cross her arms and all that, of course?


I agree that you do NOT try to reason or question a kid in an overwhelmed tantrum, but I would maintain verbal attunement...you know, the odd.."This is REALLY hard for you"..."You're REALLY upset....mummy will help you until you are calm"

This really does not sound naughty, but overwhelmed, and I think she needs help with affect regulation, not discipline.

I am not sure how verbal she is...but some gentle "seems like you feel upset a lot lately..." "I wonder if x,y,z is upsetting you?" (naming things you think might be doing that" Or just "I wonder why you have such upset feelings....what makes you feel so bad"? to try to start to understand why she is distressed.

It sounds like she is in a big transition....



Can you tell me more about the scary part for you? What that feels like, which bits are scariest, what triggers the feelings in you?


I ask because, of course, if we can assist with you not feeling that it will help (and lots of parents feel tha way with these big outbursts) and also because I would not be at all surprised if your feelings (you being her mum, and so close to her) are from picking up how she is feeling...and hence your feelings are likely to be a big help in understanding hers.


It really does sound possible that this is about dealing with the separation/new stuff in day care.


Do they use an attachment based system? Does she have a special someone she relates to there? What is she like at separation/pickup? Any mean kids there that you know of? How do staff handle the kids?

Lots of great stuff from dlowan, as per usual.

Yeah, I'd think that this big transition has to be a big part of it. Sozlet's always been a challenge, in that she needs attention, but on the balance things have been relatively smooth. The one time that she just got completely unmanageable was when we moved. It was a tough, tough time, with a lot of tears and high emotion (and not just from her...)

I expected it, I prepared for it, and who knows maybe it would've been worse if I hadn't done those things, but in the end it just required a whole lot of patience and reassurance. Just had to get her through the transition period.

With the abrupt start of all-day daycare plus stress at home (MIL) plus the stuff related to upcoming move plus her age, I'd be very surprised if Bean WASN'T having behavioral problems.

Dlowan mentioned the frustration re: communication; that it's something concrete you can work on with her. Not in a "worky" way, but just hanging out with her, talking, playing, intense focus on her. I'm sure you do this already, but it sometimes helped me get through when I wasn't feeling very patient to be conscious of the good things that it accomplishes, and the preventive medicine.

But ultimately, I think that it's something that just happens with big transitions, and that you'll have to wait out in a patient, nurturing way.

Come here and vent when you're feeling REALLY NOT patient. ! :-D

One more idea -- I'm sure this isn't the first time that Bean's daycare people have dealt with this sort of situation. Might help to talk to them, and work on some things with them to bring as much consistency to her life as possible. They're kinda co-parents now, which is weird but also can be a relief, especially if they're good, and it sounds like they are.

The scary part for me is watching her get so out of control.
Watching her turn into a demon child , and have no consideration for anything. Not even how she feels physically , simply because she is upset.

her boundries, no matter how shaky to begin with, are gone. Her boundry between anger, frustration, being tired, being happy, confused....
None of that matters when she is in a tantrum. It is like she looses her sense of self, and little Bean is gone, and some possessed flesh eating kid has taken her place.
Even the glint in her eyes is strange to me.

That is what is scary.


What i have been doing is just trying to stop her from hurting herself.

And sort of taking the " im ignoring you " stance... not to the point where I dont talk to her, but maybe too far.
I dont try to engage her insomething else for example.. and maybe I should.
I dont try to talk to her much about how she is feeling.. but I dont ignore her feelings either.

I will hold her, and when she tries to throw herself I will say something like " No. Dont throw yourself. Cry, scream kick.. do all you need to do when you are mad, but we dont throw ourselves on ( the floor, the sink, the toilet.. whatever)

Maybe that was the wrong approach.

I like the " I see you are angry. Im sorry you are angry. I know how it feels to be angry..." simple sentaces approach..


Changes.
She is now in school.
I now react to her diffrently as well.
I tell her no one time, if she doesnt obey, I get up and make her ( in a sense) .
There are rules in place now that were not there before.

ALot of change.. can make a big diffrence to her..

I had a Child of Passion who was capable of some of the most spectacular, wing-ding tantrums seen this side of heaven or hell.

What "worked" was covering him with his beloved blanket--or a rug--or my coat. This seemed to shrink his world to a size he could manage while he got control back.

Every so often I'd peek under the cover. He would roar. I would retreat. Within fifteen minutes the tantrum would be over.

My interpretation is that sometimes being a two-year-old with a two-year-old's limits is more than human flesh and blood can bear.

Covering up the problem has helped with other tantrum-prone children.

Good luck.

Ah...she is NOT a demon child, she is a little girl reacting to uncontainable emotion, and asking you to help her.


But your fears are indeed, I think, utterly spot on in reflecting how she feels.


She FEELS like a demon child when she is like this. Her distress is so huge and awful it makes her feel that she and the whole world are bad, her little boundaries are overwhelmed, everything is bad...


She needs you at these times just as she did as a wee babe.....you need to be there as a calm, loving, containing presence, who KNOWS and FEELS and REFLECTS to her how bad it is, but can handle it and help her.

Of course she loses her sense of self.....you need to hold it for her...and hold her self as a loved, ok self...who is overwhelmed and angry and feeling awful, but who is still your loved Bean....you love her however she feels and will help her.


She probably worries that you don't love her as much because you have separated her from you...she needs lots and lots of reassurance....mummy misses you too...mummy will be here to pick you up..mummy understands how hard it is...mummy will make sure these big feelings do not hurt her or anyone else.

dlowan, you are absolutely bang-on!

When our daughter was three, her brother was born. Our angelic child turned into a monster. It was heartbreaking. The tantrums ... well, shewolf described it. Totally out of control. I remember, one time, begging her to stop, and her response, looking straight at me, "I can't." I know now, looking back, had I dlowan's advice then, I could have calmed her.

Different trigger, but the same problem, I think.

whoa, flashbacks...... one of the kids I cared for used to do this sort of thing. It is hard hard hard.

I think the blanket works because it isolates the child from the world that she can't control. The blanket also provides some privacy. A kid knows when she's lost it--and that being out of control isn't seemly.

I put one out yesterday when I got home.

At least I would like to THINK i did, but who knows how long it was going on before I got there... she could have been coming to an end anyway.


I laid her in my lap, head close to my shoulders and whispered as quietly as I could how bad she was feeling. And how I know what it is to be mad, and it just stinks!
Being mad make you feel strange. It isnt fun, but it is ok.



and I just repeated that.

After about a minute, she would just stop cryingto hear what i was saying.
As soon as my sentance was done, she would wail again until she heard me speak.


Hmm.. seems to have worked wonders.

Great!

Maybe the cure was Mommie Love & Murmuring or maybe the cure was Mommie Timing.

At any rate, Mommie feels less helpless.

Hold your dominion.

distraction is a key word for any child, no matter how old we are, in re-setting our emotions.

A small infant-in-arms wailed from being tired etc until the mother and the entire commuter bus was exasperated. Suddenly, a sharp barking could be heard from the back of the bus each time the baby cried out. Each time the dog barked, the child was silent in listening to the sudden noise. Finally, the infant fell asleep and the people were very grateful to the old gentleman who could mimic a barking dog quite well.

Even as adults, we can use some of these same types of distractions in our thinking, our attitudes, and our "out of control" emotions, but it does require some humble self-correction.

Rather than attempting to "control" a strong-willed child, or quell the expressions, directing it seems the best, except when the direction is going into the wrong directions of selfishness, or temper. Being allowed to stomp off in anger is acceptable behavior; slamming the door or hitting anything or anyone is NOT. Quick and consistent discipline when children are young directs their attitudes into self-discipline when they are older.

Temper tantrums are considered common in young children who are compelled to express their frustrations in an out-of-control method. Not all children express such outbursts, but those who do can grow up to become some of the most remarkable adults providing the correct direction was taken. Distraction! It sounds almost too simple, but it works.

Yelling at your children is like trying to teach pigs to sing. It does not work. It only frustrates the pigs and makes you look a little silly. But......barking like a dog? Meowing like a cat? Crazy as it sounds....distraction. Do the unexpected. Pleading only lets the child know how effective they are in getting your attention. (the blanket was actually an effective distraction)

A young girl of four children was the only one of the four to throw the biggest temper tantrums known to any two-year-old. She is now a registered nurse having put herself through medical school and works as a labor and delivery nurse watching tiny babies come into this world. Her temper tantrums ended the day her grandfather witnessed one of her tantrums and pointed a finger at her while laughing at such a sight. It did not damage her delicate emotions! Rather, it made her embarrassed at such a lack of control and she did not get the response she expected. Plus his laughter was a distraction!

Just a note here.....the word tantrum comes from King Tantalus who continued to jump for the grapes just out of reach while standing in water. No matter how much he demanded or jumped up and down, he could not reach the sweet fruit. It was his punishment.

remember distraction in most every situation in child rearing.....and in your own life as an adult.

me agapi kai filia