How did you treat the Jewish people?

Miller wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Are they the same as Jews?

If they're Arabs, I think not.

Oh, I get it - Arab Israelis!

Even Israelis would have to admit that Arab Israelis are second class citizens. Funny though, second class Israelis clearly have it better than the average Palestinian.

You know, I have recently realized that it is hypocritical of me to criticize anyone for anti-Semitism. Not, because I have ill feelings towards Jews or "real" Israelis (quite the contrary), but because I have a generalized ill regard for Arabs.

Of course I understand that there are good, decent, and rational Arabs, and it is quite possible that they constitute the majority of their clan, but I have so much trouble with the Arabs as a people:

1) Their machismo makes any Latino look like a pansy.
2) Their resistance to modernism makes Luddites look like disciples of Ray Kurzweil.
3) Their thirst for blood makes vampires look like vegans
4) Their ignorance makes American high school students look like scholars

How did this once, justifiably, proud culture fall so low?

I know, evil America made them!

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I suppose I should add, I am a woman. I am, and began to be decades before now, sympathetic to various non-israel points of view.

I understand terrorism as the flailing of those without armies.

I am also something of a pacifist. I know this is bilaterally thought of as despicable, but I've credentials from childhood for my point of view.

My full point of view, is this is all such a waste. The cultures of the region, which are none of my business, are all at odds now. This is not necessarily so, though it might take centuries to get back out of these hostilities.

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ossobuco wrote:

My full point of view, is this is all such a waste. The cultures of the region, which are none of my business, are all at odds now. This is not necessarily so, though it might take centuries to get back out of these hostilities.

When where they not at odds ?

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ossobuco wrote:

Finn says -
Heaven forbid!

Actually, most of us were tingling with expectation of what you might have meant.

Good God, some of us did hope beyond hope that "Good Grief" meant that ossobuco had thrown his lot with the Jews, and so it is a damned good thing that you disabuse us of any such ridiculous notion, because while it is a crushing disappointment to learn that you do not support the Jews, we wouldn't want to mistake, for a second, the opinion of ossobuco!

endquote, Finn.

I guess I start out posting in some sort of disarray re other posters understanding of whether I threw my lot with the jews or not.

That's reasonable, as I don't post on these subjects often.

I started out rather pealing in pleasure about victory in '67 for Israel... when it was happening.

Even then I didn't equate Israel as a state - with everyone I knew who was Jewish. I just listened. I read various books. I am from Los Angeles. I know jewish people articulate on many issues who often rail at each other. I listen, when I can.

I lost it, personally, with the settlements. I can understand the angst and the power for going there, but don't agree with it.

At this point I see Israel as the Mammoth to our US elephant.

Ordinary people see past all this and want peace.

Interesting riff.

You may not equate Israel with all who are Jewish, but most of those who are Jewish do. And why not? In the early part of the 20th Century there were powerful beasts who tried (very very hard) to exterminate all Jews, irrespective of their nationality. The sad reality is that the non-Jewish world (which is to say, at that time, the totality of the world) really didn't care all that much. Even sadder to say, if Hitler had contented himself with eliminating the Jews from all (accepted) German territory, their might be an Adolph Hiter III serving as German Chancellor even as we type.

It may or may not be a karmic response to the hubris of the Solomonic Jews, but the world for a very long time has treated the Jews as vermin.
Did they deserve this historic sub-human status? Of course not!

The nation of Israel is a true heroic tale of earthly history. Have they fallen short of perfection? Of course they have, but what other people on earth have had to defend themselves against the hatred of so many?

How sad the irony that liberals/leftists/progressives align themselves agaist Israel.

Imagine a modern day Liberia, would our leftist friends find it within themselves to spew vitriol towards such an African Israel? I very much doubt it.

And in the end, Israel is so much more democratic than any of its neighbors as to be riduculous.

So here we have nationalistic Jews (for some reason nationalistic Jews are the only people on the earth who, some would argue, deserve a less charitable name: Zionists.) who 3/4 or more of the world would be happy to see them dissappear from the face of the earth, and we are urged, by the Left, to join in their castigation.

Never!

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I can't give you a year, I read history for interest, not memorizing. You want to tell me the year Europe wasn't at odds? Or your or my families?

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You may not equate Israel with all who are Jewish, but most of those who are Jewish do.

Perhaps we know different folks.
I have long pulls toward Israel, but not for all of its governments and the goverment actions. Not to mention the para government actions which really freak me out, as do those of my own country.

The Israel I could get behind is apparently long gone, just as the US that others relate to seemss in the distance.

Surely I don't dislike Israelis, and I can only admire Arabisraelis who live in this kind of electric hive.

But, y'know, all you smart people of both sides, can't you just talk?

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Be back at this business...

Interesting riff.

You may not equate Israel with all who are Jewish, but most of those who are Jewish do. And why not? In the early part of the 20th Century there were powerful beasts who tried (very very hard) to exterminate all Jews, irrespective of their nationality. The sad reality is that the non-Jewish world (which is to say, at that time, the totality of the world) really didn't care all that much. Even sadder to say, if Hitler had contented himself with eliminating the Jews from all (accepted) German territory, their might be an Adolph Hiter III serving as German Chancellor even as we type.

It may or may not be a karmic response to the hubris of the Solomonic Jews, but the world for a very long time has treated the Jews as vermin.
Did they deserve this historic sub-human status? Of course not!

The nation of Israel is a true heroic tale of earthly history. Have they fallen short of perfection? Of course they have, but what other people on earth have had to defend themselves against the hatred of so many?

How sad the irony that liberals/leftists/progressives align themselves agaist Israel.

Imagine a modern day Liberia, would our leftist friends find it within themselves to spew vitriol towards such an African Israel? I very much doubt it.

And in the end, Israel is so much more democratic than any of its neighbors as to be riduculous.

So here we have nationalistic Jews (for some reason nationalistic Jews are the only people on the earth who, some would argue, deserve a less charitable name: Zionists.) who 3/4 or more of the world would be happy to see them dissappear from the face of the earth, and we are urged, by the Left, to join in their castigation.

Never!

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Oh, and tell more about Liberia. I say this because I know a bit, but also am intersted in you pov.

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ossobuco wrote:

I suppose I should add, I am a woman. I am, and began to be decades before now, sympathetic to various non-israel points of view.

I understand terrorism as the flailing of those without armies.

I am also something of a pacifist. I know this is bilaterally thought of as despicable, but I've credentials from childhood for my point of view.

My full point of view, is this is all such a waste. The cultures of the region, which are none of my business, are all at odds now. This is not necessarily so, though it might take centuries to get back out of these hostilities.

That you are a woman is immaterial. Men can be brilliant or stupid, and so can women. Perhaps you think their is a gender-specific consideration waranted in this deabte. If so, please explain.

That you are a pacifisit is nothing of which to be ashamed. I have a tremendous amount of respect for pacifists, but only if they are true pacificsits, which is to say someone who is willing to die rather than to engage in violence for any reason. Of course by this definition, the number of true pacifists is incredibly small.

Herein lies my roblem with "pacifists": So many lay claim to this mantle and so few of them will abide by its principles, which is to say that no matter what, a pacifist will not engage in violence. Now if you can say that you find it possible to watch a beast rape and kill your daughter without using the baseball in you hand then I will grant you the status of a pacifist.

Under any other circumstances it is a matter of political opinion and not worthy of any claim of asolutist virtue.

A pacifist who can rationalize violence is no pacifist at all.

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Unintentionally skipped spell-check so don't be a d*ck and find fault with my spelling.

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FdA wrote:

That you are a woman is immaterial. Men can be brilliant or stupid, and so can women. Perhaps you think their is a gender-specific consideration waranted in this deabte. If so, please explain.

Perhaps a gentle correction was what was intended

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

meant that ossobuco had thrown his lot

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I see that even to just talk is like I must volunteer to walk on coals.

Well, I'll pass for the night, back domani.

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Please be nice to osso. She is a lovely person.

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ossobuco wrote:

I see that even to just talk is like I must volunteer to walk on coals.

Well, I'll pass for the night, back domani.

No, but you must be consistent and confident, unless you want to use a2k as your personal blog.

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On reconnoitering before I sign off, I see Finn worries that I might care about spelling. No, I don't care if you goof, Finn, I know you can argue.

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That is, I must show no humanity, no nuances of how I think as I think? Fine for you, but there are another bunch of folks out here who think as catch can.

I'm not quite sure how I signed up for this lecture. Tell me more about how I did. Finn.

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"No, but you must be consistent and confident, unless you want to use a2k as your personal blog"

Oh, good, y'all wanna see me change? Re, your lecture that I need to be consistent and confident...
Consistence and confidence carpet the haven of closed minds.

On Israelis and Palestinians, I am interested in both. Do I get to be mocked just to say this?

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'night, osso.

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ossobuco wrote:

That is, I must show no humanity, no nuances of how I think as I think? Fine for you, but there are another bunch of folks out here who think as catch can.

I'm not quite sure how I signed up for this lecture. Tell me more about how I did. Finn.

Of course there are many who will tolerate your being inconsistent and vague if it advances their particular ideological bent, but it's not about them, it's about your personal integrity.

Call it a lecture and ignore it ossobuco. It matters not to me. I am not on any sort of mission. I say what I mean, and if you disagree you have the option to ignore what I say or dispute it.

The truth is the truth. If my comments represent no part of it, ignore them, I promise you that I will not be hurt.

In closing, "nuance" is the great bullshit of our time.

The confused, the erratic and the absolute take great refuge in "nuance," because it excuses a multitude of sins.

I am illogical and inconsistent - in your mind - because I dwell within nuance.

Spare me the crap of "nuance" when the word is intended to mean my absolutist opinions cannot but fail before yours because yours are nuanced.

Nuance is the last and most preferred refuge of Liberals.

Nuance allows all and anything.

Nuance is emblatmatic of the condescension the Left has for the Right.

Nuance is at the core of the argument between the Left and the Right.

Nuance is relativity - moral or otherwise.

Nuance is paralysis of analysis.

Nuance allows many to find justification in the murder of the many.

Nuance is a pitiful tool.

Nuance is a reliable weapon of the pseudo-intellectual Left.

Spare me, (I implore you) nuance.

You believe this or you believe that. Nuance may result in your believing both this and that. Their's no intellectual victory in such a conclusion. If you cannot draw an opinion because it all is wrong or it is all right, withdraw from the debate. No one really cares about the opinion that "there is wrong and right in the positions taken," not-with-standing that this may be entirely accurate.

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Snood, you want me to be quiet? On which sentence? You may be right, of course, my wits are not fully gathered, but still... I seem to have entered a tunnel of reigning orthodoxy on this thread. I have many mixed feelings but I long ago stopped bowing to rightist israeli stuff. I've read enough books about israel to know I am not against every bit of it all, though I started out for it all, but am no longer just a yes person.

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How did you treat the Jewish people?

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