xguymontagx
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 02:08 am
I'm definitely for socialized health care. I don't think it will hurt specialization at all as long as you still let doctors set up private practice.

I had a roommate who got a small tear in his spleen in a freak Karate accident and was in a huge amount of pain. Apparently spleen injuries are not only painful but the spleen can internally bleed profusely and kill a person. So the doctors wanted to keep him overnight.

the problem?
he was a poor college student with no insurance. He actually had to debate weather he was going to stay the night for observation b/c of the cost. He ended up staying and ONE NIGHT at the hospital which cost him like four thousand dollars!

no one should have to have that debate of personal health vs. can I afford it. everyone deserves basic medical care.



I also think our government which has actually been cutting education funding the last few years should be going the other direction. Really how do we expect to compete economically fifteen and twenty years from now if we don't invest in the futures of our children and young adults? Education should have the largest dollar amount of anything else when our gov't. is making its balance sheets.

welfare is great for the majority of people who use it and don't abuse it. Most people are only on it for a short time till they get back on thier feet again.

and getting rd of the estate tax? I won't even get started on the gross unfairness and ridiculousness of that.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 04:51 am
Welcome to a2k, xguy. I find your comments very interesting. I don't have time to comment until this evening.
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:30 am
Quote:
the other problem as i see it is, a third party would almost certainly be a social activist party


The Green party is very much like that. They do sound like commies, and suck votes away from the Dems. American political parties need big tents to have power.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:36 am
paull
paull wrote:
Quote:
the other problem as i see it is, a third party would almost certainly be a social activist party


The Green party is very much like that. They do sound like commies, and suck votes away from the Dems. American political parties need big tents to have power.


Your ignorance would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

BBB
0 Replies
 
xguymontagx
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:45 am
edgarblythe wrote:
Welcome to a2k, xguy. I find your comments very interesting. I don't have time to comment until this evening.


Thanks edgarblythe. I do feel welcome on this board, it contains a greater level of maturity than other message boards I've posted on.
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:48 am
Huh? I sense disagreement, but about what I am not sure. I do recognise the tone however........Roxxxanne are you using BBB's byline?


Wasn't should be weren't btw.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 11:51 am
dlowan wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I'm used to thinking in the American context. I should have defined it that way. Most American liberals have traditionally stood for equal rights, controlled capitalism, social programs, such as Social Security, welfare, price controls for public utilities (electricity, for example). They gained a reputation for being anti war for so strenupusly opposing Vietnam, but the majority of liberals are willing to fight wars (They want someone to justify the wars first, however). Some notorious liberals are war heroes (George McGovern, for example). At the extreme, some liberals are full blown socialists, but far more are near the political center. Those on the right call liberals atheists, but, for the most part, they are Christian (not of the fundamentalist kind).


As though atheist is bad.


As though burning forever in Hell is not bad.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 12:08 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
dlowan wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I'm used to thinking in the American context. I should have defined it that way. Most American liberals have traditionally stood for equal rights, controlled capitalism, social programs, such as Social Security, welfare, price controls for public utilities (electricity, for example). They gained a reputation for being anti war for so strenupusly opposing Vietnam, but the majority of liberals are willing to fight wars (They want someone to justify the wars first, however). Some notorious liberals are war heroes (George McGovern, for example). At the extreme, some liberals are full blown socialists, but far more are near the political center. Those on the right call liberals atheists, but, for the most part, they are Christian (not of the fundamentalist kind).


As though atheist is bad.


As though burning forever in Hell is not bad.

I see you've found your bliss and are here to share it with others. Heart warming. Truely heart warming.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 01:26 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
dlowan wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I'm used to thinking in the American context. I should have defined it that way. Most American liberals have traditionally stood for equal rights, controlled capitalism, social programs, such as Social Security, welfare, price controls for public utilities (electricity, for example). They gained a reputation for being anti war for so strenupusly opposing Vietnam, but the majority of liberals are willing to fight wars (They want someone to justify the wars first, however). Some notorious liberals are war heroes (George McGovern, for example). At the extreme, some liberals are full blown socialists, but far more are near the political center. Those on the right call liberals atheists, but, for the most part, they are Christian (not of the fundamentalist kind).


As though atheist is bad.


As though burning forever in Hell is not bad.

I see you've found your bliss and are here to share it with others. Heart warming. Truely heart warming.


Just doing my part to satisfy The Great Commission, dys. A word to the wise .... :wink:
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 01:33 pm
I have never seen the phrase "heart-warming" used in quite that way... but I guess it fits.

It is sad though to believe in such a hateful God.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 01:36 pm
I am not progressive, but I did save 30% by switching to Geico.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 01:51 pm
A progressive , what?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 02:03 pm
Odd word "progressive" in the american usuage. Really belongs to the labor movement circa about 1890 to 1920. Pretty much socialists by todays standards which is to say not all that liberal. There have been a few Marxists here and there in the Univ systems and the Arts but never amounted to much in the way of politics. FDR is pretty much the father of american liberalism while everything has moved to the right since his death. What many now consider "conservative" republican is so far to the right that a moderate is now seen as a communist/socialist. All a matter of perspective and definition. As I see it no matter your perspective, anyone who disagrees with your ego is either communist/socialist or fascist. Damn shame really, we all could probably learn someting new thereby increasing our own understanding of the world we live it. Nevermind, we have war for that.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 04:11 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Wallace never had much political support here and was quickly forgotten. LaFollette played well only in eastern Wisconsin.

Question The bolded part of your sentence is a positively wild statement, George. Is this a question of selective or repressed memory? ;-)

In actuality, LaFollette got 16,6% of the vote in 1924 - nationally - with the support of a broad Farm/Labor coalition that ranged from former Teddy Roosevelt partisans to the Socialist Party. Thats comparable with what Ross Perot got in '92 (18,9%) - hardly just a local factor.

I realise that the quasi-socialist Farm/Labor tradition is a part of American political heritage that conservatives would rather erase from collective consciousness - all the more since its support was not at all centred in what now is called yer typical blue states. And judging by this thread, the effort's been pretty succesful. But I'd say that one-out-of-six of all US voters is a little more significant than "playing well only in eastern Wisconsin".

LaFollette actually ended up in first place across a large swath of the Rockies and plains, as the map below shows. Not just in Wisconsin but also through much of Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Washington, Nevada and California did this leftist presidential candidate beat both the Democrat and the Republican. These are states that are now considered hopelessly conservative, but that has as much to do with the way the Democrats went after FDR as with any innate characteristics.

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/comtes/1924.gif

Now the map above might still suggest a geographically isolated base. It doesnt show that LaFollette did pretty well further afield still as well. This list does: the states where LaFollette got over 15% of the vote.

    54,0% Wisconsin 45,2% North-Dakota 41,3% Minnesota 37,9% Montana 37,0% South-Dakota 36,5% Idaho 36,3% Nevada 35,8% Washington 33,1% California 31,5% Wyoming 27,9% Iowa 24,5% Oregon 23,3% Arizona 23,0% Nebraska 20,8% Utah 20,4% Colorado 17,8% Ohio 17,5% Illinois 14,9% Kansas 14,6% New York 14,3% Pennsylvania

Almost half the vote in North-Dakota, a third of the vote in California, over a qarter of the vote in Iowa, and significant support all the way out to New York and Pennsylvania - to say that "LaFollette played well only in eastern Wisconsin" is sheer rewriting of history.

And this is important, IMO. I think that if liberal and progresive Americans had worked hard to cultivate this tradition, this all-American leftist tradition that had roots in the "red-state" Rockies as much as in New York's immigrant communities - if they hadnt let themselved be played into this blue-state ghetto through the culture wars - well. We would never have had Bush. There wouldnt be talk of fly-over states.

Of course I'm not a complete naif. I realise that the bulk of historical development is due to socio-economic change. The landless Okies in California became prosperous middle-class citizens in the 50s, for example.

But I do think also that traditions live and die by the effort of those who respect it. The Democrats, post-FDR, have left the Progressive farm/labor roots of a once-influential Left orphaned. And now this tradition has been all but forgotten, with people like Georgeob1 trying to shovel it deeper into its historical grave by pretending it never existed, beyond some obscure local base, in the first place.

A stronger resistance against this rewriting of history would have resulted in a stronger leftwing movement now, and would not have left the Democratic Party at the mercy of the minority and liberal middle-class voting blocks exclusively.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 04:15 pm
Eugene V. Debbs.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 04:48 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Eugene V. Debbs.

Absolutely.

Eugene Debs - who was the Socialist Party's candidate for President five times between 1900 and 1920 - was of course far more radical (still) than LaFollette - though remember that LaFollette, too, for example argued for the nationalisation of the railways (and not a bad idea it was, either). Debs accordingly got a far smaller share of the vote. But still it was hardly negligeable.

Eugene Debs' best result was that of 1912. He got almost a million votes, which at the time (when the US population was much smaller, and women didnt have the right to vote yet) was 6,0% of the vote. 6% may not sound like much, but to put this in perspective - thats more than twice what Ralph Nader ever got.

And Eugene Debs also had his core support far from what now are called the blue states. Here's a list of his top states in 1912:

16.5% Nevada*
16.4% Oklahoma
13.6% Montana
13.3% Arizona*
12.4% Washington
11.7% California
11.3% Idaho
9.7% Oregon
9.5% Florida*
8.7% Ohio

A surprisingly wide basis for a Socialist in the US, geographically, though you have to keep in mind that the states with an asterisk were still practically unpopulated. It was Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania and California that each contributed some 10% of Debs' total vote - but that aint a narrow basis either.

Here's the map to go with that:

http://geoelections.free.fr/USA/comtes/1912debs.gif

1912 is a long time ago, but in 1920 Eugene Debs - campaigning from prison! - again got over 900,000 votes, and in 1932 his successor Norman Thomas almost did the same. And in 1948 Henry Wallace, running as a Progressive, got over a million votes. That was, admittedly, by that time just 2,4% of the vote, which is more in Nader's bracket, so George's point on that count is well-taken. (Though it's still fascinating to see how even Wallace, though relying primarily on voters in New York and California, got an above-average score in North-Dakota and Montana. Still the long shadow of William J. Bryan?)

Debs, Thomas, Wallace - all of these runs, however, pale in comparison with LaFollette's effort. There's an important difference in scope there. LaFollette's Progressive ticket got almost three times higher a share of the popular vote than any Socialist ever did. That was not chickenfeed... dont let people make you believe that social-democracy "never had a chance" in the US!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 05:05 pm
It's not so important to me who was a progressive in the past, except academically. My motivation in starting this thread was not so much to put anybody down as to get a dialog going among liberals/progressives about the current political situation. How do we restore eqilibrium to the politics of America? That has to be a priority even among the citizens of the rest of the world, for their own safety and well being.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 05:07 pm
I should source those lists and maps:

The 1924 map and the 1912 Debs map are from this site (click on the Maps/Counties drop-down menu on the right):

Atlas of US Presidential Elections since 1789

And kudos to that (French-authored!) site too, because those maps are of a lovely level of detail, not even seen in the other source for all of the above, the otherwise un-parallelable (is that English?)..

Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 05:57 pm
great posts nimh.

Edgar said

Quote:
How do we restore equilibrium to the politics of America?



You have to go back to McGovern's year, 1972, to find a presidential race in which the loser got less than 40%, excepting 1992 when Perot split the vote. The last two elections have been nail biters. Sounds pretty "balanced" to me.

What you really want to ask Edgar, is "how do we (liberals and progressives) take over the country?" because you don't like it now. Nothing wrong with that sentiment at all. Since I am neither of those types and you have earmarked this thread for them, adios.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 06:07 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
It's not so important to me who was a progressive in the past, except academically. My motivation in starting this thread was not so much to put anybody down as to get a dialog going among liberals/progressives about the current political situation. How do we restore eqilibrium to the politics of America? That has to be a priority even among the citizens of the rest of the world, for their own safety and well being.

I would again argue passionately that it IS important to look at the past. I didnt bring the above lists and maps - nerdish though they may seem - out of some competitive desire to go hairsplitting. In my heartfelt opinion, this is not merely about academic obscurity. (Perhaps the American knack to consign history to the realm of mere academic interest is part of what got you here in the first place.)

I think it is extremely important - emotionally, politically - to actively re-cultivate the awareness that there is a whole, all-American leftist tradition there. That there's nothing unAmerican about an ardent populist/leftist/social-democratic movement, that there's a past of true American heroes in there. LaFollette is one. That he's forgotten says something.

It is by forgetting to cultivate the Progressive traditions of the past that you have ended up with this anodyne choice between conservatives and liberals, between redneck and bluestate warriors of the Culture Wars - with no true left-wing alternative in sight, and traditional left-wing priorities laid by the wayside.

Beyond the analysis of how you got here, I think it is crucial for leftwing Democrats to look back at the perspectives and strategies of the Progressive tradition, if they are to ever climb out of this blue-state hole. Minority votes and those of the liberal middle classes are never going to suffice for real change in the country. You need to get back in touch with your populist roots, however much it will initially set the chattering suburbians aflutter.

These Progressives reached out to voters in Montana, Oklahoma, the Dakotas. Now the Democrats are even losing West-Virginia. That's one of the poorest states in the union, a state of miners, workers and hardscrabble-farmers. How in heaven's name can a country's more leftwing party lose those?

By letting itself be dragged into the playing field of cultural issues, that's why. By again and again being the first to itself emphasise them. But losing a state like W-Virginia should be the alarm bell, right there - and I'd say the Progressive past offers an excellent place to start a dialogue about how to restore eqilibrium to the politics of America.

To my outsider-eye, young American liberal activists often seem to be reinventing the wheel, or at least oblivious of their predecessor generations. At best, they look back to the Dylan-generation. But in the 60s the Democratic Party and the New Deal heritage were already in decline. To jump out of the shadow of the 40 years of Culture Wars that have undone America's Progressive tradition, they need to go back further than that. They need to look at FDR and traditional Progressives like LaFollette. Postmaterialist liberalism isn't going to cut it.
0 Replies
 
 

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