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Can your god make a boulder so big that he can't move it?

 
 
CodeBorg
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 07:55 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Anyway, the fairness of the question is a non-issue. Anyone care to define omipotence in a way that it can endure these loaded questions?

Pick me! Pick me! I know, I know! Omnipotence is EASY!

It's like this... I myself can very easily lift the entire Earth, all of the rocks, people, buildings and everything high up over my head, and gently set it down on my shoulders. For me it only weighs about 180 pounds, but for you it might be different.

So if *I* can lift all that, I bet God can probably do it too. Unless he's a wimpy god with no real motivation or creativity (also quite possible). They say children always exceed their parents.

"Whosoever defines thy logical framework
shall be seen as omnipotent in the eyes of helpless sheep."


... Did I get it right?! What did I win??
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husker
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 07:57 pm
CodeBorg isn't there a movie of you coming out soon??
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dlowan
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 08:36 pm
The gods of Olympus do not seem to have been delineated as being so powerful. They were able to be tricked, to some extent, by humans - and constantly by each other - and by the titans and suchlike. They fought each other and lost, or won - they could certainly be angered or piqued.

Perhaps because there were a whole lot of other gods and goddesses - whereas Yahweh seems to have been an only....

I wonder why - if one considers, for the sake of argument, gods to be projections of the human mind - some need extremely powerful gods, and some less so?
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 09:39 pm
dlowan wrote:
I wonder why - if one considers, for the sake of argument, gods to be projections of the human mind - some need extremely powerful gods, and some less so?
I've heard that wonder is the most advanced state of consciousness that a person can achieve. I wonder why we don't wonder more when wondering is such a wonderful thing...



We create what we need, and need what we don't have,
so our obsessions and values reflect our own starvations.

The weak create a strong God,
The troubled create a supportive one.
The loving create a gentle God (don't need much),
the out-of-control create a controlling God,
and the confused create a smart one.
To lead the way and fill in the holes.

When life is simple and I realize I don't actually need anything,
then suddenly everything is open to me
and I am in heaven.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 03:17 am
Quote:
When life is simple <..>

Anthropologists would not utter such a phrase.
A "simple life" is already a myth. You live in myth by saying such an illusion.
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satt fs
 
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Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 04:14 am
Those who need counting find numbers.
Numbers are behind phenomena that are perceived by those who counts.
Numbers are behind quantum phenomena as humans observe. Otherwise no one is able to even define a "quantum."
Note that numbers were not found for the direct purpose of defining a quantum.

"Number" reminds me of the supreme existence.
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Garath
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 07:54 am
I guess this question stems from the question: do we have the ability to understand the nature of God? When in the bible it says that God creates this world, that he is all loving and all knowing then in the same book, contridicts this God - there is a place where bad people, presumable people who God doesnt love are sent to; when God says that women who are raped by an unmarried man must apologise by marrying the women and paying the father of the woman 10 silver pieces - God's word sounds neither all knowing or benevolent. God is portrayed in many different lights so it is difficult to articulate what the nature of God is.
So the topic confuses me as theists always use this word perfect which isnt very well explained in the bible due to the many hypocritical actions of God. And then we have the problem of the word "perfect" itself and fit it into our finite understanding. Since humankind made up this word and we cannot have knowledge of something that we do not have experience of, it's difficult to conceive of a "perfect" being.

Here's my twist on the question. If I suppose that God is all powerful and that he can do anything, theoretically, he should be able to both create the object that he cannot move and also not create it. God may be a being who has the power to alter space time and his own existance so he should also be able to create multiple beings or mulitple circumstances in which his own attributes change.
How'd you like them apples? Smile
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 01:31 pm
Them apples be interesting points. And you seem to be along the lines of what I'd been hoping to discuss.

God's perfection is a tricky issue. In the Bible there are clear examples of his imperfection and my memory is not serving me well right now because I am unsure if it clearly states that God is perfect. I vaguely remember something along those lines.

But you have it right on, the notion of omnipotence and perfection are absolutes that do not fit well into our world. I used the God question as an example because it always draws a crowd but I'm not really interested in discussing God's failures or perfection.

I'd like to explore the notion of omnipotence and perfection.

It doesn't exist in reality but can it exist even in theory?
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CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 02:48 pm
Omnipotence may be a myth, except in that the laws of physics
guide everything, therefore everything that happens is according to the laws of physics. They are omnipotent in one respect, but they can't do absolutely anything, anytime.

Perfection is more applicable, in that everything is perfect just the way it is. We are already living in heaven, because everything is simply following it's own amazing and wondrous nature.

Just my opinion, but I am in Love...
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 03:33 pm
And an interesting opinion..

Perfection might be defined as a subjective adjective to some. As long as their ideal includes imperfections an imperfect state might be described as perfect.

Nice circle thought you got me on.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 03:39 pm
Perfection might also be defined as perception of just the right moments in life....it exists outside of us, but can be captured if we have all our senses open to it, which most of us do not. Didn't someone once say "God is in the details?"
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husker
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 03:46 pm
If for the sake of this argument there is a God, and we are human, he don't have all the facts.
Can we say God has all the facts?
Our lack of the infinite knowledge, power,and reason will keep mankind from knowing the infinite.

God = infinite
Mankind = finite
finite: completely determinable in theory or in fact by counting
infinite: subject to no limitation or external determination
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Equus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 03:49 pm
If "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely",
then what does that indicate about God?
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 03:55 pm
truth
I havn't read this thread yet, so perhaps my suggestion has already been made. The conundrum posed by Craven de Kere shows how all absolute statements foil themselves--did I say that ALL absolute statements foil THEMSELVES? Oh well.
Regarding the capacity of God. I might suggest that his omnipotence has temporal limits, that is to say, he CAN make a boulder so large he can't lift it, SOMETIMES, and AT OTHER TIMES he can lift any boulder he can make. He just can't do both at the same time; but he CAN do both.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:15 pm
My God-head and your God-head
Sittin' by the fire
My God-head said to your God-head
I'm gonna set yer hair on fire
Talkin' 'bout hey now, hey now . . .
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CodeBorg
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:16 pm
What if God sits back and says "Yeah, I could probably lift it. I just don't feel like it. Honest."

If God turns out to be conceited or lies to himself, then how can *we* know the Truth?

It's all very confusing... I need somebody to tell me how to think and live.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:18 pm
truth
I tried to read through the thread but only got as far as Husker's question about whether or not God could make a round square. That's the answer: the question is just a trick of language/logic. Round MEANS among many other things, not square. And square means among many other things not round. Ergo you can't have both at the same time. This applies equally to God's ability to produce unliftable rocks and God's ability to lift any rock--at different times. AT THE SAME TIME makes no more sense than a round square. Thanks, Husk
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JLNobody
 
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Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:21 pm
god
I wonder if there is anyone anywhere who would answer that his God can't do anything but love.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:26 pm
Which reminds me . . .

THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO THAT CAN'T BE DONE,
NOTHING YOU CAN SING THAT CAN'T BE SUNG.
NOTHING YOU CAN SAY BUT YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.
IT'S EASY.

NOTHING YOU CAN MAKE THAT CAN'T BE MADE,
NO ONE YOU CAN SAVE THAT CAN'T BE SAVED.
NOTHING YOU CAN DO BUT YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO BE YOU IN TIME.
IT'S EASY.

NOTHING YOU CAN KNOW THAT ISN'T KNOWN,
NOTHING YOU CAN SEE THAT ISN'T SHOWN.
THERE'S NOWHERE YOU CAN BE THAT ISN'T WHERE YOU'RE MEANT TO BE.
IT'S EASY.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 May, 2003 04:37 pm
My god is bigger and better than your god. Wink c.i.
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