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The difference between dissent and disloyalty

Forums: Politics
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 03:06 pm
The notion that protesting the war amounts to giving aid and comfort to the enemy is ridiculous.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 03:24 pm
Scrat wrote:
The notion that protesting the war amounts to giving aid and comfort to the enemy is ridiculous.



Allow me to jump at the opportunity to enthusiastiacally agree with you here, Scrat.
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Eva
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 03:36 pm
I can't believe it. I am in full agreement with Frank and Scrat. (shaking head...) Hell must be freezing over. Shocked Laughing Idea

Think I'll post this on the "what made you smile today" thread....

Thanks, guys!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 05:21 pm
Visitor -- What is that in your avatar? Everytime it pops up I get a craving for a stuffed pepper.
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Eva
 
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Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 05:29 pm
It's a rose. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2003 05:44 pm
This may have been what Scrat meant, but just in case it's a bit different-- I believe the difference in dissent and disloyalty is intent.

Like Craven said-- You can screw up, misspeak, give away state secrets in error... and not be disloyal.

Disloyalty is intentional.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 03:09 pm
Sofia,

That is an interesting discussion. I had a related one with a friend last night.

Is a lie a simply falsity or it it an intentionally stated falsity?
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Sofia
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 03:43 pm
IMV, a lie is a statement you know to be false. Intent to mislead is a requisite.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 05:27 pm
I'd agree that your definition is the most relevant but the word means both:

Mirriam Webster wrote:
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker
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Sofia
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 06:26 pm
You know, if we accept the b. definition-- agreeing that everyone who has ever lived and lives now has made an incorrect statement-- The world has been populated since the beginning of time with liars.


Hell. I just realized that goes for definition a., as well.

This has been a very distressing day.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Sat 17 May, 2003 06:37 pm
This is why the question "are you calling me a liar?" is unfair.

Everyone is a liar under both definitions.
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 06:01 am
I'm stunned.

I would have bet huge sums that "lie" required an intention to deceive. But Webster does include the second definition.

Something just does not sound right about that.
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Tartarin
 
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Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 06:54 am
First definition in Oxford is "intentional falsehood."
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McTag
 
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Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 12:42 pm
All the definitions in Concise Oxford (no it's not a pocket dictionary) require the perpetrator to know of the falsehood or intended deception.
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 05:06 pm
Look up the noun, not the verb.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 May, 2003 06:47 pm
Sofia wrote:
This may have been what Scrat meant, but just in case it's a bit different-- I believe the difference in dissent and disloyalty is intent.

Like Craven said-- You can screw up, misspeak, give away state secrets in error... and not be disloyal.

Disloyalty is intentional.

I'm honestly not sure whether I agree or do not. I'd have to consider a lot more hypotheticals first, and my brain is being rebooted right now.
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McTag
 
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Reply Mon 19 May, 2003 12:02 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Look up the noun, not the verb.


Craven, is this remark intended to be helpful, or funny?
Could you explain it?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2003 12:07 am
It's intended to be helpful. The definitions in question will most likely be found under lie the noun rather than lie the verb.
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McTag
 
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Reply Mon 19 May, 2003 08:47 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
It's intended to be helpful. The definitions in question will most likely be found under lie the noun rather than lie the verb.


Yes. Noun or verb, makes no difference to the argument, but it's easier in this case to think of the verb. And in which case, there is no doubt in my mind that there is implicit foreknowledge of the truth, for anyone to be able to tell a lie. I believe Webster is wrong in this respect.

McT
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2003 08:51 am
To smeg with your foreign dictionaries!

The Macquarie is clear:

lie: A false statement made with intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. Something serving to or intended to convey a false impression.

Mens rea!
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