kuvasz wrote:mysteryman wrote:JustanObserver wrote:Pointless. I don't know why I bother.
MM, your 100% right. Good for you. Now please shut the hell up and let the grownups continue with the conversation.
I will,as soon as some adults show up.
So far,all I have seen are a bunch of cowards that will blame the US military for everything bad that happens,without ever having served themselves.
So,while I hope the marines involved in the intentional killing of unarmed civilians all get court martialed,I will NOT sit here and let you or anyone else attack the honor,duty,or courage of the military itself.
Yes,there are some bad apples,but for you or anyone else to blame all the military for the actions of a few is wrong.
excuse me, but show me where someone on this thread blamed the entire US military for everything bad happening in iraq. or as you put it, "attack[ed] the honor,duty,or courage of the military itself."
go ahead, show me.
but if you cannot do that why don't you just stop making $hit up?
you are just making $hit up because you know damn right well what those boys did and you are smart enough to figure out why they went berserk. they were under a great deal of strain and lost it. just as each of us, you as well as i likely would have reacted.
you know, as I do that the 2nd, 3rd or 4th tours of duty are getting to our young marines, and that the proper training and leaderhip expected is beginning to break down because of that strain. and you also know that those poor men are not the ones responsible for them being put there in such bad circumstances
it is terrible, a terrible blight on our marines and soldiers to have their fellows in arms commit atrocities, but they apparently did. But this nation and its military leadership is ultimately responsible for the actions of the men who serve under them. You said you were in the navy and you ought to know that the captain of a ship is ultimately responsible for all the sailors under his command in times of conflict.
your remarks on the personal bravery of those who oppose your viewpoints is a non-sequiter here. it has no legitimate place. and you look foolish to even mention it when so many of the politicians you support did not serve and those who you oppose actually did serve, and were cited for bravery.
I ask, what war did George Bush and Dick Cheney fight in, what wounds do they carry that you honor them so?
if personal bravery under fire or even simply being in the regular military were the only coin of the realm those who you support would be bankrupt, and no less bankrupt than your empty rhetoric
This from nick,posted earlier on this thread...
Quote:In all probability the people in those photos were killed by US troops. Even if they weren't, their deaths were undoubtedly attributable to the war -- that we started!
So here we have someone blaming the whole US military for the actions of a few.
Their deaths are undoubtedly attributable to the war - that the USA and the UK and others started.
Or do you think, they would have been killed othwerwise in the very same way?
And: where does such blame a whole military?
And yet again MM is able to derail a thread by choosing something that is quite irrelevant and not related to the topic, attacking someone on it, and hey presto....people are defending against something that is either a lie attributed to them, or something quite unintended, and the purpose of the thread is buried under a heap of ****.
Why do you let it happen again and again?
This is the "you're dishonouring the troops" crap that the right used to try to deter the revelations about Abu Ghraib, torture and so on and on and on.
The tactic never changes.
How can you let it work?
John Kline, the Republican Congressmen for Minnesota (retired marine colonel): "This was not an accident. This was direct fire by marines at civilians. This was not an immediate response to an attack. This would be an atrocity."
(as quoted in more than 200 online newspapers)
Walter Hinteler wrote:John Kline, the Republican Congressmen for Minnesota (retired marine colonel): "This was not an accident. This was direct fire by marines at civilians. This was not an immediate response to an attack. This would be an atrocity."
(as quoted in more than 200 online newspapers)
Obviously, according to the wisdom of the Sage from Kentuck, Kline is a coward and traitor who hates America and the men and women of our Armed Forces.
That rat bastard!
Can I walk the middle road here?
First off, let me state that I beleive atrocities are commited by the americans in Iraq. My question is... why?
Funnily enough, every war fought by Americans, starting with Nam, winds up with people on the homefront getting agitated over atrocities commited in the war zone. Now, why do these things happen in the first place? Without any argument, it would seem that most young people being send of to war turn into bloodlusting savages, intent on butchering and maiming as many people as they can in the most painful manner possible. I don't buy that. Sure, there are some rotten apples everywhere, but I am reasonably sure that such people will not last long in a professional army.
So, instead on focusing on the pictures and the victims, I'd like to focus on the motive. See, I believe being a soldier in the USA forces deployed in a war zone is possibly the worst job in the world. Why?
1. You have to be active in a hostile area, with people bent on killing as many of the invaders as they possibly can.
2. You have to obey orders coming from the generals, and, even higher up, Washington, who, while of course supplied with excellent information, are not surrounded by such hostility on a daily basis.
3. You are seperated from family and friends for quite some time.
4. Directly related to one, you have to do your job while being aware that the very nature of that job could end up with you ending up dead or wounded at the end of the day.
5. All the first world countries send reporters to keep tabs, and the sad fact is that atrocities sell.
6. Their fellow americans, safely home, are not always supportive. I mean the general public of course. I hope that direct family and friends are supportive.
7. Fear (unreasonable or not) of islamic terrorists.
So you are bound by rules, but are always armed, and have to be afraid of people approaching you. Make the wrong judgement with an semiautomatic in your hands.. And an atrocity is commited.
Naj.
dlowan wrote:ICH repeats Washingtom Post article:
Marines entered shooting, witnesses recalled. Most of the shots -- in Ali's house and two others -- were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor, physicians at Haditha's hospital said.
...
Ali took nine rounds in the chest and abdomen, leaving his intestines spilling out of the exit wounds in his back, according to his death certificate.
...
The Marines moved to the house next door, Fahmi said.
...
The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died screaming.
...
Only 13-year-old Safa Younis lived -- saved, she said, by her mother's blood spilling onto her, making her look dead when she fell, limp, in a faint.
...
Moving to a third house in the row, Marines burst in on four brothers, Marwan, Qahtan, Chasib and Jamal Ahmed. Neighbors said the Marines killed them together.
...
According to Fahmi, the young men and their driver turned onto the street and saw the wrecked Humvee and the Marines. Khidher threw the car into reverse, trying to back away at full speed, Fahmi said, and the Marines opened fire from about 30 yards away, killing all the men inside the taxi.
...
Holy sh*t that was horrible to read. Thank you for the updated information. Looks like these guys just snapped after the IED hit the jeep.
najmelliw wrote:Can I walk the middle road here?
First off, let me state that I beleive atrocities are commited by the americans in Iraq. My question is... why?
Funnily enough, every war fought by Americans, starting with Nam, winds up with people on the homefront getting agitated over atrocities commited in the war zone. Now, why do these things happen in the first place? Without any argument, it would seem that most young people being send of to war turn into bloodlusting savages, intent on butchering and maiming as many people as they can in the most painful manner possible. I don't buy that. Sure, there are some rotten apples everywhere, but I am reasonably sure that such people will not last long in a professional army.
So, instead on focusing on the pictures and the victims, I'd like to focus on the motive. See, I believe being a soldier in the USA forces deployed in a war zone is possibly the worst job in the world. Why?
1. You have to be active in a hostile area, with people bent on killing as many of the invaders as they possibly can.
2. You have to obey orders coming from the generals, and, even higher up, Washington, who, while of course supplied with excellent information, are not surrounded by such hostility on a daily basis.
3. You are seperated from family and friends for quite some time.
4. Directly related to one, you have to do your job while being aware that the very nature of that job could end up with you ending up dead or wounded at the end of the day.
5. All the first world countries send reporters to keep tabs, and the sad fact is that atrocities sell.
6. Their fellow americans, safely home, are not always supportive. I mean the general public of course. I hope that direct family and friends are supportive.
7. Fear (unreasonable or not) of islamic terrorists.
So you are bound by rules, but are always armed, and have to be afraid of people approaching you. Make the wrong judgement with an semiautomatic in your hands.. And an atrocity is commited.
Naj.
I have been wondering if this stuff is par for the course in wars, or if these wars where there are ongoing terror attacks are far more likely to engender it? As in Vietnam?
dlowan wrote:This atrocity is terrible, but I actually think Abu Ghraib and the prisons in Afghanistan (not to mention outsourcing torture and Gitmo) are worse.
This appears genuinely to have been the action of a few soldiers, NOT, as with the other examples, due to the policicies of the US government.
Only if this atrocity was due to a deliberately instilled attitude to Iraqis, or if the attitude was obvious and not dealt with, does this appear to me as on a par with policies of torture and murder of prisoners.
The investigation is over? There's been a trial? The accused have been found guilty and sentenced?
Huh. I missed all that.
BAGHDAD, May 26 -- Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.
..............................
At first I tried to imagine the tough conditions. The heat is incredible, between 108 and 113 degrees. In November, however, it is not that bad: 80 degrees. The heat argument does not work.
Baghdad. (May)
Sunday 108
Monday 108
Tuesday 108
Wednesday 113
Thursday 113
.
November Average 80
