Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 01:44 am
This article on Barbaro breaks my heart.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/22/sports/othersports/22barbaro.html?hp&ex=1148356800&en=8b3e65d1dcbc2476&ei=5094&partner=homepage

and yet I've been fond of horse racing for quite a while.

My recent business partner knew horses well, and was quite caustic about anyone racing a (just new) three year old. And I'll admit my possible favorite race horse, past Swaps, was John Henry, who raced almost to old age.

Any of you know horse racing and training well? I'd be interested in the pros and cons of racing a horse at three. (and, okay, if ever.) I'll add that I've read a lot of old sports stories, with accounts of various two year olds. But that was quite a while ago, and opinions now may differ.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,200 • Replies: 29
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 02:05 am
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=74891&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 02:36 am
Poor Barbaro Crying or Very sad
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 10:12 am
They shoot horses, don't they? Or they used to shoot horses before rod-and-pin surgery was perfected.

I read that equine legs are difficult to patch up because of circulation problems. Can anyone explain?
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 10:16 am
If this horse cannot withstand a force of 1200 pounds on his hind legs, he
won't be able to be used as a stud.

Interesting, that artificial insemination can not be used in the breeding of
thoroughbred horses.

Why is that?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 08:08 pm
I don't know, Miller...
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CowDoc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 09:06 pm
AI foals can be registered except as thoroughbreds. That's the Jockey Club rule, and they're sticking to it. To me, racing three-year olds doesn't cause injuries. The problem is that they have to start training when they are yearlings, and that causes some extent of joint damage to all of them.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 09:20 pm
Ah, that makes sense, CowDoc..
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 02:25 pm
I read a letter published in a newpaper today (?), where the author blamed the bone fractures on genetics. That breeding resulted in the birth of fast horses, with very thin and fragile bones.
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CowDoc
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 05:47 pm
It's obviously true that finer-boned horses are better built for speed, and more likely to break down. Genetically, however, bear in mind that the original horse, eohippus, was only about the size of my dog. As horses evolved into their present form, they retained their basic structure of a single toe on each foot while increasing their mass by a factor of more than twenty-five. When you look at their essential formation, they are simply not well designed to be what they are today.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 05:55 pm
Thus. evolution never intended that these horses be used for this specific
type of sport. And yet, the breeding goes on to produce champions.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 06:12 pm
Cowdoc. A number of years ago i was doing a project for a racing syndicate in County Kildare Ireland We were charged with finding ground- water supplies for a proposed breeding and training facility for race horses. The lead vet was always lecturing us that the first year in a colts lfe was important to it sframe. He likened it to ducks who build bone first. We located water supplies in limestone/dolomite terranes that had excesses of Ca/Mg in the ion balance. If this is true then Barbaro who was raised and trained here in SE Pa, was subjected to water that is acidic and is buffered by Iron , since the ground waters are from granites, gneisses and schists. (were talking pH's of around 5.5 )

Do you think that, all things being equal in genetics, the environmental effects of depleted alkali minerals in the water could have had an effect on the bone density of Barbaro.?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 09:30 pm
Hmmm, or a related question, human bone density..
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Miller
 
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Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 07:21 am
In humans, a natural consequence of aging in both men and women is a decrease in bone density. I don't think a 3 year colt would have osteoporosis. :wink:
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 07:50 am
My question was an attempt to elicit an opinion whether or not environmental effects could reduce the bone density of a growing colt. Your not seeing the question correctly Miller. Its a fact that bone density scans on Barabaro showed a marked decrease from a "norm" (have no idea what that even means). Therefore , it appears that Barabaro, by definition, already seems to have something similar to "osteoporosis"
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 08:06 am
I can't read the article. It breaks my heart. I heard about it on NPR, though.

When I was showing Quarter Horses I got a mare in '75 that was the "new model" QH. More refined and thoroughbred looking like most are today. The stocky, foundation bred QH was just beginning to lose favor. My sister had the old model. Because they were both three year olds, we competed. Judges would either choose her or me to win, depending on if the judge had made the transition or still preferred the older model.

Due to her more fragile build, Dad never let me ride "Lady." She was shown at halter only. The more refined bones splinter easily.

My understanding from the NPR discussion was that they were going to try to save Barbaro. Shooting a horse with a broken leg isn't the norm anymore. Seems there would be a way nowadays to "prop" or help support him for breeding. We were doing AI in the 70's. Surely there have been advancements, or some kind of contraption that could be devised. One3 breeding fee would pay for it.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 04:14 pm
farmerman wrote:
My question was an attempt to elicit an opinion whether or not environmental effects could reduce the bone density of a growing colt. Your not seeing the question correctly Miller. Its a fact that bone density scans on Barabaro showed a marked decrease from a "norm" (have no idea what that even means). Therefore , it appears that Barabaro, by definition, already seems to have something similar to "osteoporosis"


I wasn't responding to your question.
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 04:16 pm
squinney wrote:
I can't read the article. It breaks my heart. I heard about it on NPR, though.

When I was showing Quarter Horses I got a mare in '75 that was the "new model" QH. More refined and thoroughbred looking like most are today. The stocky, foundation bred QH was just beginning to lose favor. My sister had the old model. Because they were both three year olds, we competed. Judges would either choose her or me to win, depending on if the judge had made the transition or still preferred the older model.

Due to her more fragile build, Dad never let me ride "Lady." She was shown at halter only. The more refined bones splinter easily.

My understanding from the NPR discussion was that they were going to try to save Barbaro. Shooting a horse with a broken leg isn't the norm anymore. Seems there would be a way nowadays to "prop" or help support him for breeding. We were doing AI in the 70's. Surely there have been advancements, or some kind of contraption that could be devised. One3 breeding fee would pay for it.


The handlers won't put the horse in a 'breeding stall" if he isn't able to support 1200 pounds on his hind legs. Idea
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 May, 2006 08:58 pm
Squinney, I am not at my own computer now (am at awk friends' house, as my old and new house bathroom is uptorn and the washing machine and dryer are blocking the stove and small fridge.). I'll try to access the article in the next day or two and produce some snippets. Old news now, of course, but I'll try to isolate the bit that triggered my thread posting.

Am interested in farmerman's hypothesis - or potential hypothesis - re bone density in the colt..
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 May, 2006 07:00 am
Quote:
Law professor Hank Greely answers law professor Bert Westbrook on the the artificial insemination of horses, which apparently is if not illegal unWAIS, although there is nothing about it in our constitution: "I can provide one answer to Bert Westbrook. Amongst thoroughbred horses, at least, artificial insemination is taboo. The industry, controlled in North America by the Jockey Club , is the last, odd redoubt of vitalism, arguing that some vital and essential spark is transmitted from sire to mare (dam?) in the act of breeding. It is generally believed that this is an anti-competitive measure intended to eliminate a market in frozen semen, presumably out of fear that a handful of studs would get all the stud fees (though none of the equine pleasure from it). A similar rule applies to in vitro fertilization and egg donation - otherwise, particularly highly thought of mares might be able to have hundreds of genetic colts a year. (See the excerpt below horseracing.about.com.) It's interesting that the industry does use DNA - it requires DNA tests to confirm the horse's parentage, which must mean that all the sires and dams are tested as well. It's also interesting that horses were among the most recent mammals, the feat having been first accomplished last August, after a mule was cloned. I suspect knowledge about the equine reproductive system has been limited because of the thoroughbred rules. I did find a website that had a lot of information about artificial insemination in horses, and a note that all embryo transfer restrictions have been dropped by the American Quarter Horse Society in settling a law suit from some breeders. Apparently the entire horse world does not follow the thoroughbred rules. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who knows more about the limits of assisted reproduction in horses.


ITS all to do with politics only

There is no valid reason why AI should not be approved except as stated above, the industry is merely worried about the stud fees.
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