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Proof of Jesus' Resurrection

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 10:15 am
So, the Christians were just smarter?

I'll re-read, of course; that's just my first impression.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 10:19 am
Try lucky . . .
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 10:20 am
In 70 CE, by the way, the only people who distinguished Christians from other Jews were the Christians and the Jews. Everybody else just considered them all Jews, and always annoying.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 10:53 am
neologist wrote:

That's about as close as I can come to first century verification of Jesus' life and teachings. Even so, I can hardly claim to have seen it with my own eyes. The CBS news team arrived on the scene much too late, so we can't see it on TV; and I'm sure Set and Timber will have a field day with this. But what the heck, it raises many interesting asides.


The primary - in fact that from which descend all further components - source of the "Flight to Pella" tradition is to be found in the 4th Century writings of Eusebius, who apparently drew on no longer extant memoirs, the Eusebian writings a bit later endorsed and amplified by Epiphanius. An earlier possible reference may be found in Josephus, though what the latter described hardly can be considered consistent with a "flight", nor does it indicate any one city or loacale as destination, but rather provides evidence of some Jeruslemite Christians, among others, over a period of a decade or more, departing Jerusalem and environs, seeking refuge from Roman military action and Jewish rebel action, removing themselves to assorted towns, cities, and districts throughout the Hellenized region of Jordan known as the Decapolis, or "Ten Cities", of which Pella was a constituent city. No contemporarilly sourced documentation nor any archaelogic discovery of more modern times (don't waste your time with the JVDAEA CAPTA coin, or I'll get all sortsa archaeologic on your ass :wink: ), supports the Eusebian "Flight" tradition. At the same time, contemporarilly sourced documentation and extensive modern archaeolgy at the very most charitable interpretation cast strong doubt on the historicity of any such event. Only the wishful thinking of desperate, dedicated bible-thumping Christian apologists imparts any energy to the proposition.

However, strong argument may be made, on the basis of undisputed evidence at hand, that the "Flight to Pella" tradition is construct, an artifact of the Pauline Hellenization of Jewish Christianity. If Pella is to be accorded any special status in the history of Christianity, that only would be as among the fonts of the Pauline Orthodoxy which supplanted the original Jerusalem Christian Orthodoxy, and from which Pauline Orthodoxy and the traditions directly dependent thereon has developed and descended today's Christianity.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 11:10 am
Hence, one would imagine Christians in Pella anxious to both comfirm a putatie prophecy, and preen themselves on the importance of their cult community.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 11:17 am
Setanta wrote:
Hence, one would imagine Christians in Pella anxious to both comfirm a putatie prophecy, and preen themselves on the importance of their cult community.

Pretty much the way I see it, and pretty much in accordance with legitimate, independent-of-Christian-theologics, wholly objective academic consensus ... and damn you for posting that before I noticed and was able to correct the typos in my earlier post Laughing
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 11:18 am
I've been damned by holier Joes than thou, Big Bird . . . i ain't skeert . . .
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 11:20 am
Don't hafta look real hard or far to find anyone, Joe or otherwise, holier than me Laughing
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 12:49 pm
Yeh - but it'd take Sherlock Holmes to find someone with a higher estimation of his own opinions.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 01:00 pm
snood wrote:
Yeh - but it'd take Sherlock Holmes to find someone with a higher estimation of his own opinions.

Perhaps - then, perhaps again, your opinion in such regard might derive roughly equally from disagreement with many of my opinions, and from some difficulty some apparently have when it comes to providing objective, valid, effective, substantive counter to opinions of the sort I often espouse and endorse. While I may not "Feel your pain" (a circumstance I find entirely satisfactory), I believe I understand from whence it comes.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 01:40 pm
Setanta wrote:
In 70 CE, by the way, the only people who distinguished Christians from other Jews were the Christians and the Jews. Everybody else just considered them all Jews, and always annoying.
Which, of course, explains the dearth of 1st century historical references to Christianity.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 01:46 pm
timberlandko wrote:
snood wrote:
Yeh - but it'd take Sherlock Holmes to find someone with a higher estimation of his own opinions.

Perhaps - then, perhaps again, your opinion in such regard might derive roughly equally from disagreement with many of my opinions, and from some difficulty some apparently have when it comes to providing objective, valid, effective, substantive counter to opinions of the sort I often espouse and endorse. While I may not "Feel your pain" (a circumstance I find entirely satisfactory), I believe I understand from whence it comes.
Well, I think highly of you, Timber, but in reality all you and Set have done with Pella proposition is all any one could have done: that is to bury it under an avalanche of words.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jun, 2006 02:13 pm
neologist wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
snood wrote:
Yeh - but it'd take Sherlock Holmes to find someone with a higher estimation of his own opinions.

Perhaps - then, perhaps again, your opinion in such regard might derive roughly equally from disagreement with many of my opinions, and from some difficulty some apparently have when it comes to providing objective, valid, effective, substantive counter to opinions of the sort I often espouse and endorse. While I may not "Feel your pain" (a circumstance I find entirely satisfactory), I believe I understand from whence it comes.
Well, I think highly of you, Timber, but in reality all you and Set have done with Pella proposition is all any one could have done: that is to bury it under an avalanche of words.

I submit, Neo, there is no platform of evidence upon which to set the proposition; what you characterize an avalanche of words burying the notion amounts really to the results of seriously, studiously, objectively digging around looking for any such evidence. That avalanche mound you perceive actually is no such thing, it is the product of the excavation of the hole in which evidence for the proposition was not found.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 12:54 pm
timberlandko wrote:
. . . I submit, Neo, there is no platform of evidence upon which to set the proposition; what you characterize an avalanche of words burying the notion amounts really to the results of seriously, studiously, objectively digging around looking for any such evidence. That avalanche mound you perceive actually is no such thing, it is the product of the excavation of the hole in which evidence for the proposition was not found.
As cogently pointed out by the old geezer, er, elder statesman:
Setanta wrote:

In 70 CE, by the way, the only people who distinguished Christians from other Jews were the Christians and the Jews. Everybody else just considered them all Jews, and always annoying.

So, we are not likely to be discovering any undisputed firsthand accounts. I submit the Pella proposition did not arise from a vacuum, and that Jesus' prophecy, also recorded in Matthew chapter 24, is an accurate foretelling of the events of 66 C.E.

Setanta is probably right that the decision to leave Judea after Gallus' retreat was a no brainer - for anyone but those too proud to think. So you could call the Christian exodus a coincidence.
You could.
Indeed.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 11:28 pm
Doktor S wrote:
18 pages and still no delivery of the evidence promised in the thread title.
Probably because jesus never existed.


The men who saw Jesus Christ alive after his death by crucifixion are probably among the best evidence for His resurrection.

Modern doubters, such as DS, who want to continually pretend that Jesus never even lived -- should ask themselves why it is that the Jews, who would benefit more than any other group if such a thing were true, have never advocated such an outlandish position as that?
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 11:36 pm
real life wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
18 pages and still no delivery of the evidence promised in the thread title.
Probably because jesus never existed.


The men who saw Jesus Christ alive after his death by crucifixion are probably among the best evidence for His resurrection.

Modern doubters, such as DS, who want to continually pretend that Jesus never even lived -- should ask themselves why it is that the Jews, who would benefit more than any other group if such a thing were true, have never advocated such an outlandish position as that?

Ok
Evidence plzthx.
I think there probably was someone that started the cult. That much seems self evident. As for the stories from the bible;make believe. retellings of mithras, osiris, krishna, et al. To ascribe historical credibility to biblical mythology seems to me completely erroneous, and honestly a little bit comical.
0 Replies
 
Scott777ab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jun, 2006 11:48 pm
Doktor S wrote:
real life wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
18 pages and still no delivery of the evidence promised in the thread title.
Probably because jesus never existed.


The men who saw Jesus Christ alive after his death by crucifixion are probably among the best evidence for His resurrection.

Modern doubters, such as DS, who want to continually pretend that Jesus never even lived -- should ask themselves why it is that the Jews, who would benefit more than any other group if such a thing were true, have never advocated such an outlandish position as that?

Ok
Evidence plzthx.
I think there probably was someone that started the cult. That much seems self evident. As for the stories from the bible;make believe. retellings of mithras, osiris, krishna, et al. To ascribe historical credibility to biblical mythology seems to me completely erroneous, and honestly a little bit comical.


I have never seen
the bum on a street gain hope from mithras, osiris, krishna, et al
the hooker gain hope from mithras, osiris, krishna, et al
etc
etc
etc

But i have seen time and time again over and over men and women spiritually devode and without hope of anything become believers in God, and even though they still live in junk situations they speak out for God, and live their lives accordingly.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 12:37 am
Quote:

But i have seen time and time again over and over men and women spiritually devode and without hope of anything become believers in God, and even though they still live in junk situations they speak out for God, and live their lives accordingly.

You bring up an interesting point.
Why do you suppose those with nothing will more easily respond to promises of better things in the life to come?
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 03:15 am
Suicide bombers blow themselves up in belief of God, and promises in the afterlife, does that make them correct ?

Doktor S wrote:
Quote:

But i have seen time and time again over and over men and women spiritually devode and without hope of anything become believers in God, and even though they still live in junk situations they speak out for God, and live their lives accordingly.

You bring up an interesting point.
Why do you suppose those with nothing will more easily respond to promises of better things in the life to come?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 07:13 am
Doktor S wrote:
real life wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
18 pages and still no delivery of the evidence promised in the thread title.
Probably because jesus never existed.


The men who saw Jesus Christ alive after his death by crucifixion are probably among the best evidence for His resurrection.

Modern doubters, such as DS, who want to continually pretend that Jesus never even lived -- should ask themselves why it is that the Jews, who would benefit more than any other group if such a thing were true, have never advocated such an outlandish position as that?

Ok
Evidence plzthx.
I think there probably was someone that started the cult. That much seems self evident. As for the stories from the bible;make believe. retellings of mithras, osiris, krishna, et al. To ascribe historical credibility to biblical mythology seems to me completely erroneous, and honestly a little bit comical.


You are asking for evidence that Jesus lived?

How about eyewitness accounts of His actions and words?

Before you object that 'those are from the Bible', has it occurred to you that when they were written they were not 'in the Bible' ?
0 Replies
 
 

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