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Climate Change must be tackled NOW

 
 
Scrat
 
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Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2003 07:14 pm
wolf wrote:
Would you not contend that your remark on the article is a semantical one?

No, I would not "contend" any such thing. It's not a matter of semantics that his point is completely untrue, nor is it a matter of semantics that people like him consider anything not regulated by the government to be unlimited in the real sense of the word. It is, in fact, a key point one must recognize if you're going to begin to understand what separates liberals like you from conservatives like me. You think it is fair game to make any statement that feels right, and you think it's silly when I point out that it isn't true. In point of fact, whether or not it is true is key to me and seems to be of no consequence to you. The statement resonates with your core beliefs; what difference does it make if it isn't true, right?
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Craven de Kere
 
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Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2003 07:21 pm
Don't blame liberals for Wolf Scrat. He says this whole forum has a "contract" with the "agency" and that's why we don't accept his "truth" on various things like UFOs and the like. There's a name for this, and it's not "liberal".
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 12:00 am
wolf wrote:
California seems to be paying its dues now for pioneering a counter movement against pollution. Rig an election here, burn some forests there. Liberal populations from New York to San Francisco were the most terrorized states since Bush came to power. Hardly a coincidence.


Coincidence or not, it is an interesting thesis and not one I would dismiss out of hand. Really shocking to read that Salon piece about Oregon. If Bush would have done what he said he would do at the time he took office (and I was certainly not thrilled but I listened), then he'd seem less diabolical to me. He's not a uniter nor does he seem interested in maintaining the status quo (as he said he'd do). Instead he's made, and continues to try to make, a lot of fundamental changes without any mandate, except from his sychophants. Pooh on him. I don't trust him or his henchmen, they are so obviously out to get a big piece of oil pie while stepping over lots of federal boundaries. I despise this government and have no trust in them at all. I can imagine them doing the worst things because they've already been so bad.

As to Global Warming, anybody who is still holding the covers over his head and saying "It's not we who do this," is missing the point. (For that matter, anybody who thinks it is just fuel burning is missing it, as well.) It doesn't matter the cause, because we are caught up in an ever-increasingly severe weather pattern. It's one that might shift, just as some of the Europeans have noted, from overly-hot to overly-cool and I worry very much that there's little we can do about it, now that it's been set in motion. That's my opinion.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 05:05 am
wolf wrote:
Fuel cell vehicles

Why wait 'til 2010? With an environmentally concerned president, we could buy these cars within two years. The only thing missing is a large scale refueling network.

I don't think anybody can mistake me as being on wolf's side on the general issue of this thread. An Adam Smith liberal myself, I agree with Craven's point that 'liberal' isn't the word to describe wolf's position. That said, I'd like to alert you that his particular point about fuel cells has at least some support at The Economist, which is hardly a crazy environmentalist publication.
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Wilso
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 05:12 am
I'm always annoyed when I see large citiies with all those huge lighted advertising signs. What a waste. We could make a big dent in emissions by cutting a lot of that crap out.
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Wilso
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 05:16 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Don't blame liberals for Wolf Scrat. He says this whole forum has a "contract" with the "agency" and that's why we don't accept his "truth" on various things like UFOs and the like. There's a name for this, and it's not "liberal".


About 95% of the UFO stories I have ever heard come out of the USA. I don't know if there's something in that or not. Confused
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wolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:16 am
About extraterrestrial life and ufos, there's an interesting thread populated by salivating debunkers in the Philosophy section of this site.

...

Now, the problem with calling someone a liberal is that the word has an opposite meaning in the US as it does in the rest of the world. I'll stick with the international meaning for liberal: ideological supporter of the free market.

I am a firm believer in the free market, but it's obvious that this free market is getting more utopian every day -- just as marxism suffered from stalinist tendencies, so now has the time come for the free market to obey to oligarchical tendencies. The market is ruled by massively state-subsidized oil corporations instead of by the liberal 'invisible hand'. Politics are taken over by agressive energy policies involving outright theft of another country's natural resources. Large-scale military expenditures are unavoidable in order to implement this policy.

This policy is as far from liberalism as it can get. It's massively cheating on the free market by state-subsidizing the fossil energy products, and it's monopolizing the energy supply by sabotaging sustainable alternatives -- for which there IS considerable consumer demand. There is no consumer choice when it comes to private transport: consumers are obliged to pollute the planet even if they don't want to. The only solution is where Thomas' article from the Economist comes in: a democratically decided shift from polluting to non-polluting technologies. The free market demands it, because the consumers demand it.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:22 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Don't blame liberals for Wolf Scrat. He says this whole forum has a "contract" with the "agency" and that's why we don't accept his "truth" on various things like UFOs and the like. There's a name for this, and it's not "liberal".

Point taken. My apologies to liberals everywhere for my slanderous remarks. :wink:
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Scrat
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:27 am
Thomas - What do you think about the idea that fuel cell development will occur at a rate dictated by the market? (I've tried to write that without "loading" the question.)
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wolf
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 11:43 am
Scrat, see my above remarks. The energy market is being controlled by oil lobbies, in case you didn't notice.
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Thomas
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 01:12 pm
Scrat wrote:
Thomas - What do you think about the idea that fuel cell development will occur at a rate dictated by the market? (I've tried to write that without "loading" the question.)

I think it's the way it should happen, because like you (and unlike the Economist), I believe that climate change isn't a problem worth fixing. Given that many policy makers agree with the Economist and disagree with us about climate change, I agree with the Economist's economics, which suggest that those policy makers pursue a policy of effluent taxes on gasoline and income tax cuts to offset them. Especially if the alternative is that the government micromanage the engineering of cars, which is what the USA currently does.

My intended point was not that I agreed with everything the article said, but that this particular view of Wolf's is shared by reasonable people -- which is untypical for Wolf's views in general. The basic idea here is that just because people disagree with me, that by itself doesn't make them unreasonable. Judging by Wolf's debating style, he doesn't seem to account for such a possibility. And to be honest, in some threads I even wonder to which extend you do, though I hasten to add that I don't see the two cases as being in the same ball park.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 01:57 pm
Thomas wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Thomas - What do you think about the idea that fuel cell development will occur at a rate dictated by the market? (I've tried to write that without "loading" the question.)

I think it's the way it should happen, because like you (and unlike the Economist), I believe that climate change isn't a problem worth fixing. Given that many policy makers agree with the Economist and disagree with us about climate change, I agree with the Economist's economics, which suggest that those policy makers pursue a policy of effluent taxes on gasoline and income tax cuts to offset them. Especially if the alternative is that the government micromanage the engineering of cars, which is what the USA currently does.

My intended point was not that I agreed with everything the article said, but that this particular view of Wolf's is shared by reasonable people -- which is untypical for Wolf's views in general. The basic idea here is that just because people disagree with me, that by itself doesn't make them unreasonable. Judging by Wolf's debating style, he doesn't seem to account for such a possibility. And to be honest, in some threads I even wonder to which extend you do, though I hasten to add that I don't see the two cases as being in the same ball park.

A fair and reasonable opinion all around. Cool Yes, I'm sometimes too enamored of my own opinion, but I do try... I swear I do!

Regards,
Scrat 2.0
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wolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 02:00 pm
Thomas, the level of unworldliness here is stupifying. Any reasonability lays only in your writing style, but outside of that, you wander around in a universe with the dimensions of your belly button.

Someone who thinks the threat of substantial climate change is not worth fixing, while being in possession of a limited knowledge of future influences of an unrelenting greenhouse gas buildup on our agriculture, can hardly be taken for serious. And if it's not worth fixing, what the hell do you care whether hydrogen is our future energy source or not? That should be a moot change according to you.

Get your head, straight, man.
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Scrat
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 02:10 pm
Thomas, it would seem that you and I are destined to be prisoners of our time. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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Thomas
 
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Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 02:18 pm
Scrat wrote:
Thomas, it would seem that you and I are destined to be prisoners of our time. Rolling Eyes Laughing


Heheee! Good one, Scrat! Laughing

Wolf, I prefer laissez faire to effluent taxes, but I prefer effluent taxes to micromanagement. More generally, I prefer policies that do no good over policies that do harm.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 02:26 pm
Thomas said:
Quote:
I agree with the Economist's economics, which suggest that those policy makers pursue a policy of effluent taxes on gasoline and income tax cuts to offset them.


Hmmm, I don't think you need to be rude, Wolf. I like Thomas and appreciate his writings. I question though why he might believe that this government would cut income taxes because they're receiving additional money. I haven't lived quite as long as he, but I don't think it likely.

The thing is... I don't think there is much we can do about the coming change in climate. Car emissions aren't the only cause, imho, and at least in the US, the emissions are down from what they used to be, yet the changes seem to be accelerating. Obviously, it would be good to switch to fuel cells but it is pretty obvious that the people in this government don't have a single personal economic reason to do so. They're oil guys and want to keep us dependent on oil.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 03:12 pm
Did anyone read the NASA report on the shrinking ice caps released this week? They're pretty concerned, for a group I always thought of as being, well, conservative.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 04:08 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Did anyone read the NASA report on the shrinking ice caps released this week? They're pretty concerned, for a group I always thought of as being, well, conservative.

No, I haven't read it. Do you have a link to the report? I've Googled the NASA site for "polar caps", and the first page of hits is all about polar caps on Mars! I could wade through all these, but I'd prefer a shortcut.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 04:10 pm
nasa+global+warming
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Oct, 2003 04:25 pm
"We don't know for sure if the changes that are happening are due to natural variability or whether they're human-induced changes or whether it's some combination."

Arctic warming accelerating, NASA says
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