"Genetic Death": The Evolution Meat Grinder

gungasnake wrote:

The thing about evolution which throws nearly all people with anything resembling brains or talent is simple enough to describe. It has to do with miracle counts.

The only people who claim this are people who haven't yet demonstrated any understanding of evolutionary theory. You for example.

gungasnake wrote:

Evolution on the other hand requires endless sequences of probabilistic miracles, i.e. outright zero probability events and violations of probabilistic laws.

Only in your dreams snake. Slither on.

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Setanta wrote-

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but that is usually missed by the shallow reader of history

That is tautological in that shallow readers will miss things in their readings that less shallow ones won't.

And tautologies,evidently not recognised by shallow English usage, are meaningless and "Wasted words that prove to warn /That he not busy being born/ Is busy dyeeeeiiing."

One supposes that one is meant to infer that Setanta's reading of history is the benchmark for depth to which we all need to strive to reach.

I have already explained the principle causes of war but if Setanta wishes to believe religion is one of them I guess it is a bit too late in the day now to attempt to withdraw such simple and comforting notions from his mental infrastructure.

Anyway-there's no point reading on after a clunker like that. It's as bad as fm's galactic bodies dancing.

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Wolf wrote-

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You didn't read my last post did you? You choose to ignore anything that contradicts your narrow-minded views.

Not only did I read it,and more than once, but I responded to it.

But there is little point in reading the one from which the above is taken if I am going to be accused of not having read it.

The blurted ignorant assertion seems to be the anti-IDers stock-in-trade.

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Your self-serving assumptions are meaningless in any other context than your mental masturbation, Spendi. In no part of my post have i asserted tha religion is the cause of any war, although i'd be more than happy to go into that in another thread. Any "explanation" which you may have advanced as to the principal cause of war is a meaningless as your constant references to Bob Dylan's song lyrics as having deep philosophical meaning. Obviously, you did not not want to read on, or to comment, because you have no more historical knowledge than Gunga, and are not prepared to argue the position that there were no major wars in Europe between 1813 and 1913. That was the claim to which i responded. I made no reference to religion or any other factor as the cause of these wars, other than to not the destablization of the Balkans as a result of 1853 and 1878.

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Setanta wrote:

Obviously, you did not not want to read on, or to comment, because you have no more historical knowledge than Gunga, and are not prepared to argue the position that there were no major wars in Europe between 1813 and 1913.....

You could claim the Napoleonic wars were major if you overlook the huge differences in destructiveness between them and the two world wars, but after the Napoleonic wars were over you had a century without anything which any reasonable person could even think of claiming was a major war.

At least so you'd think...

Now, are you trying to claim that either the Crimean or Franco/Prussian wars were major, or are you claiming there was some other major European war which I've somehow missed reading about between the end of the Napoleanic wars and WW-I, or what exactly?

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Another point I should make, is that the evo-losers here are pointedly ignoring the statement I have made involving genetic death and the theory of evolution.

What, if anything, was illogical in the way nazis interpreted the theory? How was naziism an abberation given the general acceptence of Darwinism at the time?

Also, how can anybody reconcile that theory (Darwinism) with the facts which we plainly observe? The human race is clearly divided into subspecies or races, and all go happily on about their business; there is no evidence that "natural selection" is tending to weed any one type out as old Chuck would have it.

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I've not ignored you, and i correctly predicted that you'd try to dance around the term major. The Russo-Turkish War of 1853 was a major war, which involved England, France, Russia, Turkey and the Kingdom of Sardinia. It had the effect of seriously destablizing the region of the Principalities, and extending from there, of encouraging movements of self-governance in the Balkans, which would lead to the 1878 Berlin Congress, and, eventually, to the Balkan Wars. The First World War grew out of what otherwise might have been the Third Balkan War.

The 1859 invasion of Italy by France was a major war which resulted in the destruction of Austrian rule in northern Italy, and the destablization of the previously regnant polities of Italy. Solferino and Magenta were very bloody battles which had a profound influence on Napoleon III's views about future wars.

The 1866 Austro-Prussian War was a major war which completely altered the balance of power in Europe, and created the German Empire, and in turn lead to the Franco-Prussian War. The Franco-Prussian war was sufficiently significant in that it ended the Second Empire, and created a republican society in France which defied the Prussians, leading to the seige of Paris and the Paris commune, and which resulted in a reparations bill of 700,000,000 gold francs. The French stunned Europe by paying the reparations in under three years, although that was a major contributing factor in the 1875-1893 Great Depression in Europe.

The First and Second Balkan wars all took place in a period of under two years in 1912 and 1913, and lead directly to the incident of which the First World War was the result.

From 1813 to 1913, literally many hundreds of thousands of Europeans were killed in wars, and i can assure you that their survivors considered those to be major events. Many millions more were impoverished and displaced or forced to emmigrate--i can assure you that those were major events to them. You wrote a throw-away paragraph suggesting that everything was peace, flowers and parties, and it now appears that your basis was that you are unimpressed by the body counts in that century.

FM is dead right--we can add history to the list of things about which you know squat.

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gunga

Quote:

Another point I should make, is that the evo-losers here are pointedly ignoring the statement I have made involving genetic death and the theory of evolution.

as A REPRESENTATIVE OF The Cretinists you have failed to make a point about a self contradictory concept like "genetic death v evolution".

PS I made that up that you also know nothing about gardening,maybe you could prove me wrong.

Set-nice summary of the tranquil decades in Europe in the 19th century. Return with us again to these serene times when weapons technology was a cottage industry.

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Setanta wrote-

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Obviously, you did not not want to read on, or to comment, because you have no more historical knowledge than Gunga, and are not prepared to argue the position that there were no major wars in Europe between 1813 and 1913.

I have enough historical knowledge to know that most of what you call history is speculation on various activities of the posh gleaned from documents and suchlike carefully selected to reinforce the latest faddish theory of a historian on the make.

Braudel wrote in the preface to his monumental The Structures in Everyday Life-

"Each chapter may not in itself seem difficult to the reader; but the complication is the insidious result of the large number of aims I have in mind, the painful uncovering of unusual themes which must be incorporated into a coherent history,in short the difficult assembling of a number of parahistoric languages- demography, food, coctume, lodging, technology, money, towns- which are usually kept separate from each other and which develop in the margin of traditional history."

Traditional history being your sort of history and, obviously, superior to other forms on account of that. You are simply in thrall to the doings of the mighty and the rich and to dramatic events.

I know there were wars in Europe between 1813 and 1913 but whether they were major historical events I would question.

Braudel also says-

"Certain groups of privileged actors were engaged in circuits and calculations that the ordinary people knew nothing of."

They were noises off in other words. But I do know how nice it is to avoid the "painful uncovering of unusual themes".

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spendius wrote:

I have enough historical knowledge to know that most of what you call history is speculation on various activities of the posh gleaned from documents and suchlike carefully selected to reinforce the latest faddish theory of a historian on the make.

So you think that the insurrection and civil war in Spain from 1833 to 1876 was "an activity of the posh?" You think the insurrections and outright warfare in Italy form 1820 to 1866 has as evidence "suchlike carefully selected documents?" You think the Franco-Prussian war is an example of "the latest fadish theory of an historian on the make?" Which historian would that be, Mr. Gobshite?

What is amazing is how you rant and scream as you dig deeper you own grave. If you contend that anything which i provided in my post is false, then cite secifically which portions you deny, and provide your sources. I provided sources for what i posted. Argue with them--Mr. I don't know what the Hell i'm talking about, but maybe if I'm snotty enough I'll sound credible.

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Quote:

"Certain groups of privileged actors were engaged in circuits and calculations that the ordinary people knew nothing of."

They were noises off in other words. But I do know how nice it is to avoid the "painful uncovering of unusual themes".

As for this, which you make seem like tripe by your (i suspect) misuse of it out of context--tell me that the ordinary people were unaware of the civil war in Spain, unaware of the uprisings and invasion in Italy, unaware of the socialist uprisings of 1848, and were unaware of the brutal repression thereof. I rather doubt the your Mr. Braudel will contend that these events were "noises off in other words [sic]" as you have, in am sure, misquoted him. I referred only to the events which impinged on the lives of ordinary people, Mr. Gobshite.

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Isn't it odd how anti-IDers can't refrain from personal abuse and trite invective even when attempting to respond to a considered post written in a manner which though it couldn't match the conversation at High Table with ladies present would at least be acceptable there.

One has only to imagine anti-IDers with supreme power to bring on a shivering fit.

One of these days I will ask the mods if it is okay for me to have a go at personal invective and I'll show you how it's done. And it won't be trite.There won't be any of those words in it one often hears in conversations in common drinking dens in dockland areas. They just prove a paucity of imagination which may well be a prime characteristic of anti-IDers.

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BTW-

Have you read Braudel's cv?

He is not mine. He belongs to everybody who hasn't got their head in the washing basket at the nurse's home.

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Setanta wrote:

So you think that the insurrection and civil war in Spain from 1833 to 1876 was "an activity of the posh?" You think the insurrections and outright warfare in Italy form 1820 to 1866 has as evidence "suchlike carefully selected documents?" You think the Franco-Prussian war is an example of "the latest fadish theory of an historian on the make?"

The basic reality is that none of those things killed tens of millions of people or turned Europe into a pig pen from end to end, and altogether they dont begin to compare to either of the world wars.

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Gunga-

You have to allow Setanta to milk his concern for saving lives. I know it's a cheapskate method of presenting oneself in the best possible light but there it is. He is very concerned about deaths and especially when he can exploit them to make his general position more acceptable to IDers and other sentimentalists.

Flaubert describes a war where the enemy officers come to stay in his house and play cards all day while he goes off to practice resistance with some sticks. It took Darwin to get the real show on the road. They were fairly civilised up until then. Some of them cut their own faces with their swords to impress the ladies when they got back to the salons with the scars of battle.

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Are you trying to tell us they didn't use poison gas in the little wars of the 1800s??

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I see Gunga Din and Spenid are having a self-congratulatory conversation. I won't interrupt--they deserve each other.

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Setanta wrote:

I see Gunga Din and Spenid are having a self-congratulatory conversation. I won't interrupt--they deserve each other.

Translation into plain English: "Gee, looks like those two have exposed my ignorant statements on the subject of military history for the rubbish they were..."

What about you, "Farmerman"? Didn't you include history in your little list of things I'm supposedly ignorant of? Don't you have some example to offer us of a war in the 1800s which was comparable to one of the 20'th century's world wars??

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Gunga, your understanding of history fits well with your "head in the crease" knowledge of science.You would ask, why didnt we nuke eaxch other in the 1800's? Id bet that you didnt know that the production of military poison gases (like thioether) were a product of theLATE 19th century (The process to create suitable quantities of mustard wasnt developed till about 1885 or so). Then it really wasnt until the 20th before it was militarized in quantities. What the hell, they did have things like grape shot and chain shot. It wasnt that military hardware specialists werent trying.

So your aimless point about the quiet century was amusing but totally in spirit with how your mind works. YOU keep forgetting that time is always in the equation of history and geology.

I imagine that you just glommed that bit of reverie from some revisionist site (really gunga, noone here ever accuses you of being creative, just a reasonably accomplished "Cut and paster")

I still contend that history, like other subjects, escapes your little mind by choice gunga.

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Quote:

Starting from 1913, Europe had gone for about 100 years without a major war. They had the whole world by the balls and they were so fat and happy they didn't know what to do with themselves. They didn't even have to think; all they needed to do was go on having board meetins, formal balls, parades, Oktoberfests, and all the stuff they always used to do and they'd still have the whole world by the balls and be so fat and happy they wouldn't know what to do.

This was your exact quote gunga. You are now trying to squirm out of the absolute by making it appear that you meant it in relative terms. Well, you should always write what you mean first. That way you dont have to choke on your script when people force it down your throat.
The means to kill noncombatants and waste larger areas is a product of the technology of a time. When you poo poo something like the Franco Prussian War, why not look at the effects that wars in that century wreaked on economies , roadmaps , and governments.
I know why your such a knucklehead when it comes to interpretation of science, you fail to do systematic analyses of all the available data

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"Genetic Death": The Evolution Meat Grinder

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