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The Fiction of "Fact"

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 10:46 am
astounding wrote:
they are all simple minded views, of a simple nature. Man trying to explain a phenomenon that can only be explained once a man is dead.
As no SCIENTIFIC fact has been presented to me, then I assume that the belief in an untested theory will suffice.

I submit fact has been presented, plentifully, though you've chosen to disregard or dismiss such. That is not our problem.

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okay, okay, whatever, it may be tested, it may be proven to some even. But how do you know that it is the correct train of thought?

It is proven to any of logical mind, moderate education, and as may be possessed of any philosophic integrity and intellectual honesty to be proven by the evidence available tobe accurate within a sufficient degree of probability as to suffice more han adequately in that it is consistent with all observation, is predicate upon legitimate critical thought, and is not contraindicated by any evidence whatsoever.

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Are the right scientific solutions being subjected to its research?

Yes. That is from whence it came, by which it has been developed, and through which it continually is being confirmed, expanded, and further more precisely understood and refined. In a sense, the purpose of science is to prove assumptions to be wrong; absent indication, to say nothing of proof, of error, conclusions are held to be true. Nothing even indicates the theory of evolution is in error.

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It will always remain a theory until it is proven. Just as the world is flat theory was disproved, everyone started believing.

Here we begin to get to the crux of the matter, to cut to the quick. It is not a mater of belief, it is a matter of learning and understanding. Both belief and learning and understanding are matters of personal choice. Learning and understanding, however, require more effort. Some are uncomfortable with taking that effort.

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Can science disprove theology? or creationism? I think not.

Here, at least, you think correctly; science in no way addresses any such consideration.


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So therefore this argument will rage on until each one of us experiences death.

Here you make an incorrect and unsupportable assetion; no evidence exists by which to support any facet of the logical fallacy you present as argument. In that valid argument may not proceed from logical fallacy, the notion there is, or even may be, an argument as that purported and apparently perceived by you to exist is itself an absurdity

Quote:
Then, and only then, if there is a god, we will find creationism is true hard fact, or if we are rebirthed into a monkey will we find that reincarnation is correct, or perhaps some scientist will develop an immortality elixer and we'll experience evolution first hand.

You really have to get a handle on the distinction between fanciful conjecture and factuall-based conclusions. Pascal's Wager is a sucker bet.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 10:48 am
This joker advances the favorite paranoia of the fundamentalist nut cases in the U.S. these days--that science is a secular humanist plot which seeks to "disprove" god. That's nonsense, "science," per se, does not care if there is a god--that's a supernatural concept (poofism), and science is only concerned with natural phenomena.
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JasonL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 11:20 am
I agree Setanta, that Science does not disprove God but in fact shows us how God does things. The reason I say that, well it's quite obvious I think, is that I am a believer in a supreme being which in this case would be God. Evolution may and probably is the way God was able to create the different species that inhabit the world we live in today. But as far as humans coming from apes is concerned I just don't believe it. I'll admit I don't know much concercing the theory of evolution but I thought I would just post my thoughts anyhow.
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galaxy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:16 pm
I can assure you I have no affiliation with this astounding

I should report you for attack on my person!!!
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:30 pm
The truth shall be revealed.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 12:45 pm
galaxy wrote:
I can assure you I have no affiliation with this astounding

Appearances strongly indicate the contrary. Demonstrate there be not an affiliation and/or association as has been suggested, do not merely claim in the face of strongly indicative evidence the apparent consanguinity be illusory.

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I should report you for attack on my person!!!

Demonstrate that in any way an attack on your person has occurred. I submit, by way of reminder, it would be useful, in fact requisite, first to disprove the allegation at issue prior to proceeding with any demonstration of ad hominem thereby directed toward you.
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galaxy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 01:13 pm
evidently my attempt at trying to be comical was not successful.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 01:33 pm
astounding wrote:
Nothing anyone has said is a proven fact that can sway me from thinking that the evolutionary theory is no more than that.
Prove to me, as a fact, that Mars exists. Prove to me, as a fact, that atoms exist. Prove to me, as a fact, that you exist.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 01:50 pm
JasonL wrote:
The reason I say that, well it's quite obvious I think, is that I am a believer in a supreme being which in this case would be God.
And why "in this case" would this "supreme being" be God?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:21 pm
Back to the "9 Billion Names of God."
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:28 pm
Mars can be proven to exist by getting in a shuttle and flying there. I can prove my existence, simply if you came over, and I put my finger in your ear...or any physical contact. where as evolution has to be proven by scientific fact that is wholly connected to reality. Which I simply do not see.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:29 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
The truth shall be revealed.


But only after we are dead if we are to believe astounding.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:31 pm
astounding wrote:
Mars can be proven to exist by getting in a shuttle and flying there. I can prove my existence, simply if you came over, and I put my finger in your ear...or any physical contact. where as evolution has to be proven by scientific fact that is wholly connected to reality. Which I simply do not see.


It seems you didn't bother to follow the link I gave to observed evolution of species.

"Give me facts so I can ignore them" seems to be your motto.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:32 pm
timber & Lw, it's suggestive that Astounding and Galaxy were both names of famous SF magazines, although Astounding was eventually renamed Analog. Idea
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JasonL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:40 pm
My supreme being is God. I don't know who yours is. My belief is my belief. I don't much care whether it is agreeable with what others think. But seriously, that's not the point I wanted to make. Read my previous post.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:45 pm
astounding,

The evidence presented by Darwin is summarized in the November 2004 issue of National Geographic. Let us know if you have any problems with it:

Quote:
The evidence, as he presented it, mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology. Biogeography is the study of the geographical distribution of living creatures?-that is, which species inhabit which parts of the planet and why. Paleontology investigates extinct life-forms, as revealed in the fossil record. Embryology examines the revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching; at a stretch, embryology also concerns the immature forms of animals that metamorphose, such as the larvae of insects. Morphology is the science of anatomical shape and design. Darwin devoted sizable sections of The Origin of Species to these categories.

Biogeography, for instance, offered a great pageant of peculiar facts and patterns. Anyone who considers the biogeographical data, Darwin wrote, must be struck by the mysterious clustering pattern among what he called "closely allied" species?-that is, similar creatures sharing roughly the same body plan. Such closely allied species tend to be found on the same continent (several species of zebras in Africa) or within the same group of oceanic islands (dozens of species of honeycreepers in Hawaii, 13 species of Galápagos finch), despite their species-by-species preferences for different habitats, food sources, or conditions of climate. Adjacent areas of South America, Darwin noted, are occupied by two similar species of large, flightless birds (the rheas, Rhea americana and Pterocnemia pennata), not by ostriches as in Africa or emus as in Australia. South America also has agoutis and viscachas (small rodents) in terrestrial habitats, plus coypus and capybaras in the wetlands, not?-as Darwin wrote?-hares and rabbits in terrestrial habitats or beavers and muskrats in the wetlands. During his own youthful visit to the Galápagos, aboard the survey ship Beagle, Darwin himself had discovered three very similar forms of mockingbird, each on a different island.

Why should "closely allied" species inhabit neighboring patches of habitat? And why should similar habitat on different continents be occupied by species that aren't so closely allied? "We see in these facts some deep organic bond, prevailing throughout space and time," Darwin wrote. "This bond, on my theory, is simply inheritance." Similar species occur nearby in space because they have descended from common ancestors.

Paleontology reveals a similar clustering pattern in the dimension of time. The vertical column of geologic strata, laid down by sedimentary processes over the eons, lightly peppered with fossils, represents a tangible record showing which species lived when. Less ancient layers of rock lie atop more ancient ones (except where geologic forces have tipped or shuffled them), and likewise with the animal and plant fossils that the strata contain. What Darwin noticed about this record is that closely allied species tend to be found adjacent to one another in successive strata. One species endures for millions of years and then makes its last appearance in, say, the middle Eocene epoch; just above, a similar but not identical species replaces it. In North America, for example, a vaguely horselike creature known as Hyracotherium was succeeded by Orohippus, then Epihippus, then Mesohippus, which in turn were succeeded by a variety of horsey American critters. Some of them even galloped across the Bering land bridge into Asia, then onward to Europe and Africa. By five million years ago they had nearly all disappeared, leaving behind Dinohippus, which was succeeded by Equus, the modern genus of horse. Not all these fossil links had been unearthed in Darwin's day, but he captured the essence of the matter anyway. Again, were such sequences just coincidental? No, Darwin argued. Closely allied species succeed one another in time, as well as living nearby in space, because they're related through evolutionary descent.

Embryology too involved patterns that couldn't be explained by coincidence. Why does the embryo of a mammal pass through stages resembling stages of the embryo of a reptile? Why is one of the larval forms of a barnacle, before metamorphosis, so similar to the larval form of a shrimp? Why do the larvae of moths, flies, and beetles resemble one another more than any of them resemble their respective adults? Because, Darwin wrote, "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state" and that state "reveals the structure of its progenitor."

Morphology, his fourth category of evidence, was the "very soul" of natural history, according to Darwin. Even today it's on display in the layout and organization of any zoo. Here are the monkeys, there are the big cats, and in that building are the alligators and crocodiles. Birds in the aviary, fish in the aquarium. Living creatures can be easily sorted into a hierarchy of categories?-not just species but genera, families, orders, whole kingdoms?-based on which anatomical characters they share and which they don't.

All vertebrate animals have backbones. Among vertebrates, birds have feathers, whereas reptiles have scales. Mammals have fur and mammary glands, not feathers or scales. Among mammals, some have pouches in which they nurse their tiny young. Among these species, the marsupials, some have huge rear legs and strong tails by which they go hopping across miles of arid outback; we call them kangaroos. Bring in modern microscopic and molecular evidence, and you can trace the similarities still further back. All plants and fungi, as well as animals, have nuclei within their cells. All living organisms contain DNA and RNA (except some viruses with RNA only), two related forms of information-coding molecules.

Such a pattern of tiered resemblances?-groups of similar species nested within broader groupings, and all descending from a single source?-isn't naturally present among other collections of items. You won't find anything equivalent if you try to categorize rocks, or musical instruments, or jewelry. Why not? Because rock types and styles of jewelry don't reflect unbroken descent from common ancestors. Biological diversity does. The number of shared characteristics between any one species and another indicates how recently those two species have diverged from a shared lineage.
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harvester
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:48 pm
A new fossil discovery has revealed the most primitive snake known, a crawling creature with two legs, and it provides new evidence that snakes evolved on land rather than in the sea.

Snakes are thought to have evolved from four-legged lizards, losing their legs over time. But scientists have long debated whether those ancestral lizards were land-based or marine creatures.

The new find reveals a snake that lived in the Patagonia region of Argentina some 90 million years ago, said Hussam Zaher of the University of Sao Paulo in Brazil, who describes the find in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. Its size is unknown, but it wasn't more than 3 feet long, he said in a telephone interview.

It's the first time scientists have found a snake with a sacrum, a bony feature supporting the pelvis, he said. That feature was lost as snakes evolved from lizards, and since this is the only known snake that hasn't lost it, it must be the most primitive known, he said.

The creature clearly lived on land, both because its anatomy suggests it lived in burrows and because the deposits in which the fossils were found came from a terrestrial environment, he said.

So, if the earliest known snake lived on land, that suggests snakes evolved on land, he said.

Little new evidence had appeared in recent years in the land-versus-sea debate, he said, and "we needed something new. We needed a new start. And this snake is definitely a new start for this debate."

While the creature still had two small rear legs, it crawled like a modern-day snake, he said. It probably used its legs only on occasion, though it's not clear for what, he said.

The creature, named Najash rionegrina, is "a fantastic animal," said Jack Conrad, a researcher at the American Museum of Natural History in New York and co-curator of an upcoming exhibit on lizards and snakes.

"It's really going to help put to rest some of the controversy that's been going around snake evolution and origins," he said. Conrad said he never took sides in the land-versus-sea debate, but "but this is starting to convince me."

Olivier Rieppel, a fossil reptile expert at the Field Museum in Chicago, called the find important and said Najash is clearly the most primitive known snake.

If snakes did evolve on land rather than the sea, their fossil record might be less complete because early fossils would have been better preserved in a marine environment, he said.

That, in turn, suggests "we may not know all the lineages of early snake evolution," he said. Maybe several snake lineages lost the legs of their lizard ancestors independently, he said.

The creature's name comes from a Hebrew word for snake and the Rio Negro province of Argentina, where the discovery took place.
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:52 pm
come on, 90 million years? that is a long time, and I doubt such fragile material like bone could survive for that long. and it says they gradually lost their legs through evolution of course. where are the bones of those that were in the process of losing their legs? This is a load of crap. Everything has to be proven to everyone here through millions of years or else its just not logical. that entire post harvester is a load, I sincerly hope you people don't believe this.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:54 pm
astounding wrote:
Mars can be proven to exist by getting in a shuttle and flying there.
Well Mr. astounding, have you gone in a shuttle and flown there? Nope! Then by your logic you have not proven Mars exists. You've only claimed that you think you can prove it. That's not the same at all.
astounding wrote:
I can prove my existence, simply if you came over, and I put my finger in your ear...or any physical contact.
Well Mr. astounding, if you came over, and put your finger in my ear, how does that prove you exist? Perhaps I have a Delusional Disorder and simply imagined it!
astounding wrote:
where as evolution has to be proven by scientific fact that is wholly connected to reality. Which I simply do not see.
Who is asking you to understand "scientific fact"? Not me! I am asking you to prove to me, as a fact, that Mars exists. Prove to me, as a fact, that atoms exist. Prove to me, as a fact, that you exist. You have so far failed.


Let's put it this way Mr. astounding, if you cannot prove any of the things you claim are facts, why should I believe in your abilities to be skeptical of evolution?
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 02:56 pm
astounding wrote:
come on, 90 million years? that is a long time, and I doubt such fragile material like bone could survive for that long. and it says they gradually lost their legs through evolution of course. where are the bones of those that were in the process of losing their legs? This is a load of crap. Everything has to be proven to everyone here through millions of years or else its just not logical. that entire post harvester is a load, I sincerly hope you people don't believe this.

Just out of curiosity, could you sketch out your proof that God created man? With your keen eye for insufficient evidence, I'm sure it must be pretty good.
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