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The Fiction of "Fact"

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 06:54 pm
astounding,

Evolution is a 2 part process really.

1. A species has a lot of minor variations in it.
2. The best creature for an environment is the one that survives.

The problem with your argument astounding is you fail to account for the billions and billions of changes that occur because of the minor variations and survival based on those variations.

What part of evolution can't be explained logically? Please tell us and we will explain it logically. There is a difference between its explanation and the inability to understand that explanation.

Algae didn't want to be anything. Algae is because it was the best suited adaptation for an environment.


Your rant at the end about illusion, delusion and God is pretty pointless and self defeating.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 06:56 pm
spendius wrote:
If it doesn't work they head off into the inscrutable enigma.


Glad I finally made it to your territory spendi, the inscrutable enigma. You must be proud of me:wink:
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 07:08 pm
welcome astounding.

Go and learn about the theory of evolution so we can discuss it, yeah ?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 07:48 pm
ID-iocy is as ID-iocy does.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 07:52 pm
Oh my gawd, no another astoundingly stupid person barging into A2K. Get thee back to Yahoo! Chat.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:02 pm
LW, I really must defend timber. I'm sure he has said some things that seemed almost clever.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:28 pm
snigger.
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:40 pm
attacks on persons or attitudes really is not becoming, but if that is how you argue points of belief than I'm sure you really are something to be proud of. ...that was for lightwizard and timber.

as for eorl. you tell me to go and learn of the theory of evolution. let me try to explain something to you and this hinge character who assumes I'm some Bible thumping religious fanatic. First of all I have no religious affiliations. I was raised not going to church, no was I raised to believe in unproven ideas, or your precious theories as you call them. I actually chose to bring this point up in the most sarcastic version as I could to rally those of you who firmly believe in this...evolution to simply prove a point. That people will stand for those things which they do not understand fully. Granted, I'm not saying I fully understand evolution, nor should any one person. And of course this very wise hinge fellow can dodge all the facts he wishes to, by saying what he will, name calling, religion bashing, ...all the things that were cool in elementary school. But nobody has proven any facts to me as of yet. You tell me to look up scientific fact and you haven't given one hard fact that supports evolution.

parados, now...
what variations? take the skeletal remains of the three foot human found on a remote part of indonesia. now, because of one dwarf skeletal remains, you expect the non believers of your theoritical idea of evolution to assume humans can change to these 3 footers? the island where the remains was found was small, mammals grew smaller to create a more comfortable environement because of the lack of food, reptiles grew larger to tackle the smaller mammals, in sense they become the dominant force, and humans, being mammals grow smaller to accomodate for the lack of food and cramped living as well. here is the problem I have....where is the 4'7 human? the gaps in between are not filled. wouldn't it be gradual if evolution was correct? now surely not ALL the remains of every specimen could be found, but what about some of them? surely there would have been thousands of these elephants that gradually went from 16 ft tall to 4 ft tall. why are only the skeletal remains of the shortest and tallest found? are there no in between species?
and my last point....the one about the algae was an example. Supposing evolution is true one of the earliest forms of life would be in the form of algae. how did it come to the conclusion to change to a fish? did anyone grasp the sarcasm in the story I posted on the first page? I want you to prove to be your theory, otherwise it is simply that to me....an uneducated example of mans explanation of how we came about.
The only thing that is self defeating is your belief in this nonsense. if there was no way of communicating between algae, how did they decide to become ....a rose, or lilly, or tree, or even a mammal or reptile? that was what my "ranting of illusion, delusion, and God" was about.
believe me I do understand that alot of you cannot argue a point without namecalling, or trying to tell me what religion I am, or if I believe in a God at all. I simply want to know why you argue so fully, so whole heartedly for a theory?
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:41 pm
astounding wrote:
if humans came from monkeys, and monkeys changed into humans, why did some remain monkeys and apes? why didn't they all change?


setanta already addressed the issue of monkeys changing into humans: they didn't. as to why they didn't all change, they did. monkeys of today are quite different from monkeys millions of years ago, because monkeys have been evolving for all that time, into new species of monkeys.
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 08:59 pm
Hi Ast, you seem to be reading posts selectively. Apologies if I've wrongly labelled you as a creationist. I should have just labelled you as someone who new nothing about evolutionary theory.

As I've said. Evolution is not directed by individuals, nothing [/B]decides[/B] to to evolve into something else. Even if it holds its breath until it turns blue.

4 foot 7 was not an uncommon height for humans in the fairly recent past. Indeed, even today some humans are 3 foot tall. Height does not seperate species. See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species for more on what defines a species (yet again, no absolute truths).

There are no secrets in the fossil record being incomplete - the chances of an animal meeting its end in just the right conditions to leave a fossil, and that fossil surviving to be in a position to be discovered by someone who recognises it for what it is, is incredibly small - I'm amazed that we find as many as we do.

I argue for evolution because it fits so much of the evidence of the past, because it is a system that requires no external input to work. I also support because it is open to testing, it makes testable predictions and there is no suggestion that it can never be proved wrong either in detail or in general. There is still a lively debate about in scientific circles.

You have been dismissed by a number of A2K regulars because you are pushing a line that we see with monotonous regularity in these hallowed halls. If you had taken a moment to search this forum for 'evolution' that would have been obvious and you may have come up with a new angle to make the discussion interesting, for a change.

We react as if you have some idea how this discussion has gone in the past. We can't know what your intention is; you don't have a search engine [that we know about]. We do.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:06 pm
Eorl wrote:
LW, I really must defend timber. I'm sure he has said some things that seemed almost clever.

:wink: LOL :wink:


astounding wrote:
attacks on persons or attitudes really is not becoming, but if that is how you argue points of belief than I'm sure you really are something to be proud of. ...that was for lightwizard and timber.


astounding, neither you nor your attitude are being attacked; it is the proposition you forward and the manner in which you present that proposition which merit ridicule. On another thread, way down toward the bottom of THIS fairly long post (most of which has nothing to do with you or anything you've said here do far), I addressed your proposition and its manner of presentation:

timberlandko wrote:

astounding wrote:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=73147

read this topic posted in science and mathmatics.


Asounding, welcome to A2K - a kind word of advice - well meant, I assure you; its fine to dispute science and mathematics with science and mathematics; that's the process by which both are developed, explored, refined, confirmed, revised, or dismissed. However, in order to do so, one must both know the science and mathematics one wishes to dispute, and must also present that dispute in forensically valid. academically sound manner, otherwise, all one manages to accomplish is to illustrate ignorance of science, mathematics, and forensics.


Trust me partner, all you've done so far is passionately demonstrate what you do not know or understand. You might start by finding out just why your "Only a theory" meme falls flat on its face. Learn what constitutes a scientific theory.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:07 pm
astounding wrote:


as for eorl. you tell me to go and learn of the theory of evolution. let me try to explain something to you and this hinge character who assumes I'm some Bible thumping religious fanatic. First of all I have no religious affiliations. I was raised not going to church, no was I raised to believe in unproven ideas, or your precious theories as you call them. I actually chose to bring this point up in the most sarcastic version as I could to rally those of you who firmly believe in this...evolution to simply prove a point. That people will stand for those things which they do not understand fully. Granted, I'm not saying I fully understand evolution, nor should any one person. And of course this very wise hinge fellow can dodge all the facts he wishes to, by saying what he will, name calling, religion bashing, ...all the things that were cool in elementary school. But nobody has proven any facts to me as of yet. You tell me to look up scientific fact and you haven't given one hard fact that supports evolution.



If you go and read some posts by "farmerman" in "Evolution, How?" you'll find more than enough facts.

Ultimately, unless you have better explanation, evolution is here to stay.

No other explanation has ANY evidence while evolution has more evidence than you could even read in your lifetime.

Why would you question it? There's just one reason...because the implications that no deity was required to produce mankind are seen by some people as attempting to prove that no deities exist.

Why is it not obvious that your argument carries as much weight as those who claim the earth is flat?

But OK, you want evidence? Here's one little bit : The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history.
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:48 pm
However, in order to do so, one must both know the science and mathematics one wishes to dispute,

eorl, you said these words...I took them sarcastictly, I assumed that by you stating them you intended that I knew nothing of mathematics and what ever else....

ah hinge thank you finally a brilliant remark. very nice. I wish no harm on anyone here, I know what evolution is, but nobody seems to understand what I'm saying. how does one know the monkeys of yesteryear are different from today? If fossil finds are you proof then why not assume a certain species of monkey died off, and the now adays monkeys are all that remains. And if a human did "transform" or "evolve" from a 5'9 specimen to a 3' tall specimen I did not mean that that they would be a whole different species, please stop with the minor mistakes I make, and answer the questions I pose. okay, so a 4'7 man is not a different species than a 3 foot tall man, who cares. My point was that if evolution is correct, would not that change from 5'9 to 3' take place over millions of years, and in the process wouldn't there be, oh I dunno, 400 thousand years of man being an average height of 4'7? where are these skeletal remains? I'm not asking for you to correct my anthropologic terms that I undoubtable screw up. However, you still present no facts. "GO READ THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION" "4'7 IS NOT A DIFFERENT SPECIES", .....facts people facts, quit dancing around the flame. Eorl, ....facts? if there are so many facts supporting evolution why after all these decades, and over the course of more than a century is it still a theory? the distribution is consistent with their evolutionary history?? thats insane, if anything history supports the complete opposite. ....do not get upset, I'm not dogging you or trying to put you down as you seem to enjoy doing because you cannot prove a point, I'm just saying here man, how am I the one believeing an uproven fact? such as the earth is flat. how can you sway the people who do believe in a diety that evolution is not a theory? you're telling them and I that all our organs, and senses were created just right over time to fit into this exact moment? why I guess if thats correct we wont have to worry about global warming right? people will naturally, through the course of evolution, change to develop thinner skin, or less body hair, or even larger spores right? so why are there people who worry about global change when evolution will run its course and all will be taken care of? right?
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:50 pm
p.s as long as there is a church creationism is here to stay as well. and you shouldn't say something is here to stay when it is still only its theoritical stage after so long. wouldn't it be considered fact if this were proven to any one person of relative importance, or with any minor influence?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:50 pm
Yes, they certainly developed thinner skin.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 09:56 pm
astounding wrote:
how does one know the monkeys of yesteryear are different from today? If fossil finds are you proof then why not assume a certain species of monkey died off, and the now adays monkeys are all that remains.


because there are no fossils of modern monkeys together with extinct monkeys, anymore than there are fossils of modern humans in the same geologic formation with dinosaurs.
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astounding
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 10:10 pm
but are there not cave drawings of of mammoths and dinasours that man skillfully drew with charcoal and ancient forms of dyes or paints?
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 10:11 pm
Ast you are very difficult to talk to because you do appear to lack an understanding of a number key concepts in this debate.

I already addressed your question about fossils.

hingehead wrote:

There are no secrets in the fossil record being incomplete - the chances of an animal meeting its end in just the right conditions to leave a fossil, and that fossil surviving to be in a position to be discovered by someone who recognises it for what it is, is incredibly small - I'm amazed that we find as many as we do.


You can't dismiss our points because you didn't mean to suggest they were a 'whole different species' - because that's exactly what evolution is about: the creation of new species. Darwin's book was called 'On the origin of species...'

What you appear to be talking about are morphological changes within species - but I'm having such a hard time following your train of thought I'm not sure I've even got that right.

What is this flame you think we're dancing around?
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 10:14 pm
astounding wrote:
but are there not cave drawings of of mammoths and dinasours that man skillfully drew with charcoal and ancient forms of dyes or paints?


That underlines what I was saying about your lack of specifics in this area.

There are no dinosaurs depicted in cave paintings - there are mammoths which became extinct at the back end of the last ice age, independently confirmed by the fossil (and peat bog) record.

Egyptians painted hyena headed beings on burial chamber walls. we have yet to locate any fossil remains...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Apr, 2006 10:15 pm
astounding wrote:
However, in order to do so, one must both know the science and mathematics one wishes to dispute,

eorl, you said these words...I took them sarcastictly, I assumed that by you stating them you intended that I knew nothing of mathematics and what ever else....

ah hinge thank you finally a brilliant remark. very nice. I wish no harm on anyone here, I know what evolution is, but nobody seems to understand what I'm saying. how does one know the monkeys of yesteryear are different from today? If fossil finds are you proof then why not assume a certain species of monkey died off, and the now adays monkeys are all that remains. And if a human did "transform" or "evolve" from a 5'9 specimen to a 3' tall specimen I did not mean that that they would be a whole different species, please stop with the minor mistakes I make, and answer the questions I pose. okay, so a 4'7 man is not a different species than a 3 foot tall man, who cares. My point was that if evolution is correct, would not that change from 5'9 to 3' take place over millions of years, and in the process wouldn't there be, oh I dunno, 400 thousand years of man being an average height of 4'7? where are these skeletal remains? I'm not asking for you to correct my anthropologic terms that I undoubtable screw up. However, you still present no facts. "GO READ THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION" "4'7 IS NOT A DIFFERENT SPECIES", .....facts people facts, quit dancing around the flame. Eorl, ....facts? if there are so many facts supporting evolution why after all these decades, and over the course of more than a century is it still a theory? the distribution is consistent with their evolutionary history?? thats insane, if anything history supports the complete opposite. ....do not get upset, I'm not dogging you or trying to put you down as you seem to enjoy doing because you cannot prove a point, I'm just saying here man, how am I the one believeing an uproven fact? such as the earth is flat. how can you sway the people who do believe in a diety that evolution is not a theory? you're telling them and I that all our organs, and senses were created just right over time to fit into this exact moment? why I guess if thats correct we wont have to worry about global warming right? people will naturally, through the course of evolution, change to develop thinner skin, or less body hair, or even larger spores right? so why are there people who worry about global change when evolution will run its course and all will be taken care of? right?


Dude, you ask so many stupid questions it's hard to deal with. (note, I'm calling your questions stupid, not you). You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND the theory of evolution. Once you do understand it you may have a lot more success trying to demolish it.

How about you have a look at all the close relatives of the kangaroo (according to evolution) and then look at the distribution of these species throughout the world and through time, and then tell me how the evidence points AWAY from a correlation between descent and distribution.
0 Replies
 
 

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