1
   

Found: Gospel of Judas

 
 
mac11
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:34 am
Since we're quoting Jesus Christ Superstar here:

JUDAS' DEATH

Judas:
My God! I saw him.
He looked three-quarters dead!
And he was so bad I had to turn my head.
You beat him so hard that he was bent and lame,
And I know who everybody's going to blame.
I don't believe he knows I acted for our good.
I'd save him all this suffering if I could.
Don't believe...our good...
And I'd save him if I could...

Annas:
Cut the confessions, forget the excuses.
I don't understand why you're filled with remorse.
All that you've said has come true with a vengeance.
The mob turned against him, you backed the right horse.

Caiaphas:
What you have done will be the saving of everyone.
You'll be remembered forever for this.
And not only that, you've been paid for your efforts.
Pretty good wages for one little kiss.

Judas:
Christ, I know you can't hear me,
But I only did what you wanted me too.
Christ, I'd sell out the nation,
For I have been saddled with the murder of you.
I have been spattered with innocent blood.
I shall be dragged through the slime and the mud.
I have been spattered with innocent blood.
I shall be dragged through the slime and the mud!
I don't know how to love him.
I don't know why he moves me.
He's a man. He's just a man.
He is not a king. He is just the same
As anyone I know.
He scares me so!
When he's cold and dead will he let me be?
Does he love me too? Does he care for me?
My mind is in darkness.
God, God I'm sick. I've been used,
And you knew all the time.
God, God I'll never ever know why you chose me for your crime.
You're so bloody, Christ.

Choir:
Poor old Judas. So long Judas.

Judas:
You have murdered me.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:41 am
I guess not. She's telegraphing but I think her SOS is in the wrong code.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 11:59 am
Gotta say I find the whole deal amusing, and quite illustrative of the propensity some folks have for believing whatever they happen to want to believe.

None familiar with my position on religion will mistake what follows as any defense of or attempt to validate Christian thought, The Gospels, or any of the rest of that sort of bunk; this is nothing other than a "set-the-record-straight" excersize.

Bunk is bunk, whether it be bunk itself, or bunk about bunk. What we got here, with the popular media frenzy on this "Latest Stunning Find", is contemporary bunk about ancient bunk directed against similarly ancient bunk.

As Momma A's article mentions, the 4th Century text in question was discovered a generation ago, a redaction of earlier text. In reality, it is not a Christian text, it is anti-Christian, an attack on Christianity. Also alluded to in the article cited by Momma A is Irenaeus' refutation of it - "The Gospel of Judas" was known in the 2nd Century - the document at discussion derives from the Gnostic Heresies, themselves derived from a Judaeo-Egyptian spiritual tradition predating Christianity, and at the time something of a competitor of Christianity. Any who might think the National Geographic's current play on the silliness reflects in any way on Christianity are unaware of reality.

Adversus haereses (Against Heresies), 1:31 (Note - the work is subtitled On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis - timber)
Irenaeus of Lyons - circa ~180 CE
Quote:
Doctrines of the Cainites

1.
Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.

2. I have also made a collection of their writings in which they advocate the abolition of the doings of Hystera. Moreover, they call this Hystera the creator of heaven and earth. They also hold, like Carpocrates, that men cannot be saved until they have gone through all kinds of experience. An angel, they maintain, attends them in every one of their sinful and abominable actions, and urges them to venture on audacity and incur pollution. Whatever may be the nature of the action, they declare that they do it in the name of the angel, saying, "O thou angel, I use thy work; O thou power, I accomplish thy operation !" And they maintain that this is "perfect knowledge," without shrinking to rush into such actions as it is not lawful even to name.

3. It was necessary clearly to prove, that, as their very opinions and regulations exhibit them, those who are of the school of Valentinus derive their origin from such mothers, fathers, and ancestors, and also to bring forward their doctrines, with the hope that perchance some of them, exercising repentance and returning to the only Creator, and God the Former of the universe, may obtain salvation, and that others may not henceforth be drown away by their wicked, although plausible, persuasions, imagining that they will obtain from them the knowledge of some greater and more sublime mysteries. But let them rather, learning to good effect from us the wicked tenets of these men, look with contempt upon their doctrines, while at the same time they pity those who, still cleaving to these miserable and baseless fables, have reached such a pitch of arrogance as to reckon themselves superior to all others on account of such knowledge, or, as it should rather be called, ignorance. They have now been fully exposed; and simply to exhibit their sentiments, is to obtain a victory over them.

4. Wherefore I have laboured to bring forward, and make clearly manifest, the utterly ill-conditioned carcase of this miserable little fox. For there will not now be need of many words to overturn their system of doctrine, when it has been made manifest to all. It is as when, on a beast hiding itself in a wood, and by rushing forth from it is in the habit of destroying multitudes, one who beats round the wood and thoroughly explores it, so as to compel the animal to break cover, does not strive to capture it, seeing that it is truly a ferocious beast; but those present can then watch and avoid its assaults, and can cast darts at it from all sides, and wound it, and finally slay that destructive brute. So, in our case, since we have brought their hidden mysteries, which they keep in silence among themselves, to the light, it will not now be necessary to use many words in destroying their system of opinions. For it is now in thy power, and in the power of all thy associates, to familiarize yourselves with what has been said, to overthrow their wicked and undigested doctrines, and to set forth doctrines agreeable to the truth. Since then the case is so, I shall, according to promise, and as my ability serves, labour to overthrow them, by refuting them all in the following book. Even to give an account of them is a tedious affair, as thou seest. But I shall furnish means for overthrowing them, by meeting all their opinions in the order in which they have been described, that I may not only expose the wild beast to view, but may inflict wounds upon it from every side.


Pertinent, and illuminating, in the present context is Irenaeus' Preface to Book I of his lengthy, detailed treatise (around 170 chapters, each with substantial preface, across 5 books):

Quote:
Preface

1. Inasmuch as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in lying words and vain genealogies, which, as the apostle says, "minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith," and by means of their craftily-constructed plausibilities draw away the minds of the inexperienced and take them captive, [I have felt constrained, my dear friend, to compose the following treatise in order to expose and counteract their machinations.] These men falsify the oracles of God, and prove themselves evil interpreters of the good word of revelation. They also overthrow the faith of many, by drawing them away, under a pretence of [superior] knowledge, from Him who rounded and adorned the universe; as if, forsooth, they had something more excellent and sublime to reveal, than that God who created the heaven and the earth, and all things that are therein. By means of specious and plausible words, they cunningly allure the simple-minded to inquire into their system; but they nevertheless clumsily destroy them, while they initiate them into their blasphemous and impious opinions respecting the Demiurge; and these simple ones are unable, even in such a matter, to distinguish falsehood from truth.

2. Error, indeed, is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced (ridiculous as the expression may seem) more true than the truth itself. One far superior to me has well said, in reference to this point, "A clever imitation in glass casts contempt, as it were, on that precious jewel the emerald (which is most highly esteemed by some), unless it come under the eye of one able to test and expose the counterfeit. Or, again, what inexperienced person can with ease detect the presence of brass when it has been mixed up with silver?" Lest, therefore, through my neglect, some should be carried off, even as sheep are by wolves, while they perceive not the true character of these men,-because they outwardly are covered with sheep's clothing (against whom the Lord has enjoined us to be on our guard), and because their language resembles ours, while their sentiments are very different -- I have deemed it my duty (after reading some of the Commentaries, as they call them, of the disciples of Valentinus, and after making myself acquainted with their tenets through personal intercourse with some of them) to unfold to thee, my friend, these portentous and profound mysteries, which do not fall within the range of every intellect, because all have not sufficiently purged their brains. I do this, in order that thou, obtaining an acquaintance with these things, mayest in turn explain them to all those with whom thou art connected, and exhort them to avoid such an abyss of madness and of blasphemy against Christ. I intend, then, to the best of my ability, with brevity and clearness to set forth the opinions of those who are now promulgating heresy. I refer especially to the disciples of Ptolemaeus, whose school may be described as a bud from that of Valentinus. I shall also endeavour, according to my moderate ability, to furnish the means of overthrowing them, by showing how absurd and inconsistent with the truth are their statements. Not that I am practised either in composition or eloquence; but my feeling of affection prompts me to make known to thee and all thy companions those doctrines which have been kept in concealment until now, but which are at last, through the goodness of God, brought to light. "For there is nothing hidden which shall not be revealed, nor secret that shall not be made known."

3. Thou wilt not expect from me, who am resident among the Keltae, and am accustomed for the most part to use a barbarous dialect, any display of rhetoric, which I have never learned, or any excellence of composition, which I have never practised, or any beauty and persuasiveness of style, to which I make no pretensions. But thou wilt accept in a kindly spirit what I in a like spirit write to thee simply, truthfully, and in my own homely way; whilst thou thyself (as being more capable than I am) wilt expand those ideas of which I send thee, as it were, only the seminal principles; and in the comprehensiveness of thy understanding, wilt develop to their full extent the points on which I briefly touch, so as to set with power before thy companions those things which I have uttered in weakness. In fine, as I (to gratify thy long-cherished desire for information regarding the tenets of these persons) have spared no pains, not only to make these doctrines known to thee, but also to furnish the means of showing their falsity; so shalt thou, according to the grace given to thee by the Lord, prove an earnest and efficient minister to others, that men may no longer be drawn away by the plausible system of these heretics, which I now proceed to describe.





Of course, facts rarely get in the way of an entertaining story.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:10 pm
You asked for scripture that backed up my assertion of Satan taking over Judas. I gave it. You didn't say that Christ had to be the one to say it.

I'm bowing out of this discussion. It's turning from the topic at hand and I'm not going to be the focus. I am not the topic. Whether I am afraid, paranoid, hysterical or anything is not the topic.

I hope everyone has a wonderful day.

Timber, thanx for that post. As always, you provide grounding.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:13 pm
On the dating of the Gospel of Judas -

Quote:
Dating: the Gospel of Judas was of course composed before 180, the date at which it is mentioned for the first time by Irenaeus in adv. Haer. If it is in fact a Cainite work, and if this sect - assuming it was an independent gnostic group - was constituted in part, as has sometimes been asserted, in dependence on the doctrine of Marcion, the apocryphon can scarcely have been composed before the middle of the 2nd century. This would, however, be to build on weak arguments. At most we may be inclined to suspect a date between 130 and 170 or thereabouts. source


Quote:
We have just received the results of carbon dating: the text is older than we thought and dates back to a period between the beginning of the third and fourth centuries," foundation director Mario Jean Roberty said. different sourc


The dating of the scroll does not contradict the dating of the gospel because the found document was certainly not the original. Most, if not all, of the scrolls that we have are copies and the references to their existence by Irenaeus one to two hundred years prior to the carbon dating of the found scroll confirms this is a copy.

From Momma's favorite site:
Quote:
The dating of the gospel of Judas codex is likely the 5th century A.D. Up to one-third of the codex is missing or illegible.

Prior to this discovery, the only reference to the gospel of Judas was in the writings of a 2nd century Christian named Irenaeus.


This was probably taken from earlier estimates of the dating of the codex but it is certainly older than the 5th century. Interesting that the fundy site confirms the existence of the gospel but then focuses on Irenaeus dismissal of it. What's missing is that Irenaues dismissed much of the early writings from the second century. Rather than the bible being the divine word of God, it is more accurately the divine word of Irenaeus.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:15 pm
Yes, the Big Bird provides "grounding," and if one is familiar with the totality of his statements on this topic, including those at AFUZZ--then one understands that he does not buy the "gospel of John" claptrap any more than he buys the "gospel of Judas" claptrap.

This kind of thread is soley entertainment, and not meant to be taken internally . . .
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:25 pm
Is there any wonder that Jesus laughed, and laughed, and laughed? But, as people like to say, it beats crying.

This sort of teaching has been with humanity since the beginning but most people think they have to listen to the ideas of mere men even into adulthood. Read for yourselves, look to yourself, do something for yourselves.

No, this newfound chip of scroll won't go away. Soon, someone will have to account for the pack of lies humanity has been fed these 2,000 years.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 12:43 pm
Yep--Timber didn't telegraph from my comment, he illuminated (like an antique Bible)?

I nominate St. John and St. Mathew for a brilliant screenplay from other material (which is also as dubious as the Gospel of Judas is characterized). They may be getting the Oscar for a career of extrapolating from verbal hearsay (dare not call it rumor) and bending what written history was available to fit their story. It will be brought to the screen...whoops, Mel Gibson and earlier, Cecil B. Demille have already attempted to make it historic fact. Mencken is rolling in his grave, hysterical with laughter.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 03:49 pm
timberlandko wrote:
As Momma A's article mentions, the 4th Century text in question was discovered a generation ago, a redaction of earlier text. In reality, it is not a Christian text, it is anti-Christian, an attack on Christianity.

Depends on what you mean by "Christianity." If "Christianity" includes all those who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then the Gnostics were most assuredly Christians. That their version of Christianity was labelled as "heretical" by other Christians is not surprising, nor is it conclusive. Irenaeus, after all, would have called Episcopalians "heretics."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 03:54 pm
And Presbyterians--don't forget the Presbyterians . . .
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 04:36 pm
... and even Momma A unless she's a papist.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 05:28 pm
In The Last Temptation of Christ, Judas is portrayed as the one who gave the most to Jesus. When Jesus has lived out a long life, Judas comes to him, still hale and strong. He tells Jesus he owes him, after all he sacrificed. It is his speech that convinces Jesus to return to the cross at the instant the first hammer blow strikes the first nail.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 07:24 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
My only point was Christ would not lie in anyway about the crucifixion. If this story were true, that Judas was involved in the planning, etc., other than the way the Bible depicts this, it would mean Christ is, in essence, lying.



Lash wrote:
Where would the lie be?

Momma Angel wrote:
You asked for scripture that backed up my assertion of Satan taking over Judas. I gave it. You didn't say that Christ had to be the one to say it.



Try again. As anyone can see I asked nothing about Satan taking over Judas. I asked how the Gospel of Judas made Christ a liar. You said it did. I just want to know where the lie is.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 07:27 pm
I'm sorry, Lash. I completely misunderstood. I apologize for that.

If you wouldn't mind waiting a bit I'll address that. We lost a troop today that was the father of one of our Angels and we're dealing with that right now. I will get back to you.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 07:42 pm
Ask yourselves, audience, why she chose to say that.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 07:57 pm
I chose to say that, Lash because that's what is going on. I figured maybe you might understand why it might take me a bit of time to get back to this.

I keep trying with you and you keep trying to make something out of everything.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 08:12 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
I chose to say that, Lash because that's what is going on.


Lash wrote:
I don't want to know what's going on.


Momma Angel wrote:
I figured maybe you might understand why it might take me a bit of time to get back to this.


Lash wrote:
No one is on a time schedule to answer.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 08:12 pm
Ask yourselves, audience, why some folks delight in complaining about the game they won't quit playing with one another.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 08:14 pm
I just wait silently until it plays out.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Apr, 2006 08:18 pm
Audience: I haven't complained.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/13/2024 at 10:05:23