This is a Gnostic text. It tells us nothing about the founders of Christianity or the events of the crucifixion. This text in conjunction with other finds over the past 50 years does reveal volumes about the Christianity of the second century which is its true importance.
HERE is the download link for the translated Judas Gospel (pdf-data).
Wow thanks Walter.
I'll print out to read later.
It's all good.
Acquiunk wrote:This is a Gnostic text. It tells us nothing about the founders of Christianity or the events of the crucifixion. This text in conjunction with other finds over the past 50 years does reveal volumes about the Christianity of the second century which is its true importance.
This is the succinct statement among all the silliness which characterizes MOAN's hysterical reaction.
There was also a discussion of this topic on CBC this morning. Those from established churches who spoke in rebuttal were dismissive, as one would expect--but very often, their remarks were to question the intention of the messenger and to claim "we've seen this all before." Representatives of established religious authority are protecting orthodox dogma, and cannot admit to anything new appearing which is valid without throwing their doctrinal canon into suspicion, so that such a reaction is predictable. Find another manuscript, and before it is publicized, those finding it--if they pay attention and understand the rigidity of dogma--should be able to predict the reaction.
The problem is that the documents upon which established, orthodox dogma relies are of no more recent date--despite hysteria such as MOAN shows here about "what the bible says," none of the documents which allegedly support christianity date from any ealier than the late first century, and no copies of them are extant. The second century is the time of the origin of most of the "new testament," and, once again, no complete copies extant date from that era. Add to this the "editing" and the "corrections" done by Origen and Eusebius, and you have material which is very dubious when viewed as historical documents.
I was not at all surprised by the sneering contempt with which the spokesmen of organized religion spoke in the radio program i heard this morning. Their whole shell came could be called into question . . .
Momma Angel wrote:Not paranoid at all, Eorl. Just explain to me why other scrolls have not been accepted as truth (those supporting the Bible) and this one is seeming to be accepted and it is not in support of the Bible.
This is a question for the Catholic Chuch not a Forum member.
Just looked over the text Walter provided....there seems to be a lot more here than just the Judas situation.
It speaks much more of the role of angels than I have ever seen.
It says God appointed 12 angels to rule over the underworld.
Here's the text of the Gospel.....
THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS
Translated by
Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, and Gregor Wurst,
in collaboration with François Gaudard
From The Gospel of Judas
Edited by Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, and Gregor Wurst
Published in book form complete with commentary by The National Geographic
Society.
INTRODUCTION: INCIPIT
The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot
during a week three days before he celebrated Passover.
THE EARTHLY MINISTRY OF JESUS
When Jesus appeared on earth, he performed miracles and great wonders for the salvation
of humanity. And since some [walked] in the way of righteousness while others walked
in their transgressions, the twelve disciples were called.
He began to speak with them about the mysteries beyond the world and what would
take place at the end. Often he did not appear to his disciples as himself, but he was found
among them as a child.
SCENE 1: Jesus dialogues with his disciples: The prayer of thanksgiving or the eucharist
One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and
seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together
and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.
The disciples said to [him], "Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of
thanksgiving? We have done what is right."
He answered and said to them, "I am not laughing at you. <You> are not doing this
because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised."
They said, "Master, you are [
] the son of our god."
Jesus said to them, "How do you know me? Truly say to you, no generation of the
people that are among you will know me."
THE DISCIPLES BECOME ANGRY
When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began
blaspheming against him in their hearts.
When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, "Why has this
agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and [
] [35] have provoked you
to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human
beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face."
They all said, "We have the strength."
But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was
able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face
away.
Judas [said] to him, "I know who you are and where you have come from. You are
from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one
who has sent you."
JESUS SPEAKS TO JUDAS PRIVATELY
Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him,
"Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is
possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. [36] For someone else will
replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their
god."
Judas said to him, "When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day
of light dawn for the generation?"
But when he said this, Jesus left him.
SCENE 2: Jesus appears to the disciples again
The next morning, after this happened, Jesus [appeared] to his disciples again.
They said to him, "Master, where did you go and what did you do when you left us?"
Jesus said to them, "I went to another great and holy generation."
His disciples said to him, "Lord, what is the great generation that is superior to us and
holier than us, that is not now in these realms?"
When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to them, "Why are you thinking in your
hearts about the strong and holy generation? [37] Truly
Momma Angel wrote:I read enough to understand they were trying to disprove what the Bible says. I read enough to understand what is being said is that the story of Judas and Christ in the Bible is untrue. That's really all I needed to read.
Which story? There are four of them, which are sometimes inconsistent with one another. I also don't understand why you would say: "But, implying that Christ would involve Himself in a conspiracy is a bit much." If crucifiction and resurrection has always been part of god's plan, why wouldn't it be part of God's plan that Judas turned him in?
Chai Tea,
How are we supposed to bicker and squabble in ignorance when you go and post the whole thing right there?
Great. Now I'm gonna have to at least skim through the damn thing just to bluff my way through the rest of the thread!
Jeeez .....
Thomas wrote:Which story? There are four of them, which are sometimes inconsistent with one another. I also don't understand why you would say: "But, implying that Christ would involve Himself in a conspiracy is a bit much." If crucifiction and resurrection has always been part of god's plan, why wouldn't it be part of God's plan that Judas turned him in?
yeah, what I said.
some people just don't want to upset the status quo.
like somehow the only four that made it past a bunch of politicians are the correct ones.
The fact that some gospels have been hidden or destroyed is the real conspiracy.
Eorl wrote:Chai Tea,
How are we supposed to bicker and squabble in ignorance when you go and post the whole thing right there?
Great. Now I'm gonna have to at least skim through the damn thing just to bluff my way through the rest of the thread!
Jeeez .....
I know, I'm such a buzz kill.....
ya know, I'm not sayin' I accept all of this "as gospel" (yuk yuk yuk).
I don't really have the time to delve deeply....but wot's all this about angels of the underworld, and assistants, and someone named Christ in amongst them, and them creating adam and eve...
wowzers.....There's plenty to bicker about here.
Hold on a minute............
OK - now the bickering can start......
The Bible is a printed book, edited heavily by human hands and minds. I suppose the religious do not want to give up on their concept of the Bible, like a Moray Eel not wanting to let go of their prey.
My only point was Christ would not lie in anyway about the crucifixion. If this story were true, that Judas was involved in the planning, etc., other than the way the Bible depicts this, it would mean Christ is, in essence, lying. He doesn't lie.
And again, this just reminds me of those that would accept that Jesus was a drunkard because someone in the Bible said so and would discount His resurrection, even though it's in the Bible.
OK, which one of you jokers was callin' Jeebus a drunk . . . you know he don't like that . . .
The lie would be that it wasn't Satan that made Judas do what he did but a planned out conspiracy with Christ, and part of that conspiracy would have been to tell the crucifixion in a different way; i.e., as in the Bible.
It wasn't in this thread that anyone did that, Setanta. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was. It is something that has been said many times by others and I was using it as an example. I am sorry for not making that clearer.
A Gospel is not a history in the ordinary sense but an arrangement of remembered acts and sayings of Jesus retold to win faith in him.
When you would know a bit of church history and/or follow the various links here, you would notice that ...
But that's useless to tell you, I know.
Useless to tell me? As a matter of fact Walter, I am doing some research into this so I can understand it better.
this really changes nothing
in order to advance the cause of what became christianity, judas (or someone) had to do what he did
he either did it as part of a conspiracy between jesus and the disciples, or he did it as a puppet of prophecy, in the end the result is the same
the only difference between the two is the question of free will, was it a plan inspired by man he could have backed out of (unless the disciples and followers were more like a brainwashed cult), or some divine intervention, that basically made him do it he would
Jesus stated His knowledge of what would happen, where and when, and by whom, if you believe the Bible.
He followed the path that he knew would lead to His death.
What scriptural reference do you base your statement: "The lie would be that it wasn't Satan that made Judas do what he did " Did Christ say Satan made Judas do what he did?
