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Rational Theists Step Forward

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 06:59 am
common defititions of "religion" include metaphysical explanations, this, in itself, precludes "rationality."
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 07:11 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Chumly- I hear what you are trying to get across, but I am having difficulty in going along with your reasoning. Let us say that the concept of "rational theism" could encompass the entire spectrum of religious thought, including those of a personal nature, not connected to any defined religion, and of kinds and types not yet described.

That concept may be more benevolent, and more inclusive, but, IMO, is no more rational that the belief in one popular religion or another. There are infinite possibilities, and at this point in our evolution, man does not have the foggiest notion of the truth, although some may claim that they do, loudly.

Although what I think that you are attempting to express is the possibility that there may be a life force that is quite unlike the sorts of things that one hears in houses of worship, that supposition cannot be considered any more rational than the ones that have been formerly promulagated. Bottom line is, no one really knows.
I am not arguing that the rational Theist is ANY more rational in real terms, only in relative terms to the Theist who believes in a limited personification of god.

The rational Theist correctly believes there is just as much likelihood that god is personified in, or as, a monotheist non-corporeal being, and/or polytheist non-corporeal beings and/or a real living being, and/or real living beings, and/or a real thing and/or real things.

I make no argument that the belief in god itself is rational, I make no argument that the rational Theist's beliefs in all personifications of god is rational. I make no argument that the rational Theist's concepts may be more benevolent. I make no argument that there may be a life force that is quite unlike the sorts of things that one hears in houses of worship. I make no argument that the rational Theist must embrace the entire spectrum of religious thought.

Here are the two 'commandments' Laughing

"- The rational Theist must accept that all types of god have equal merit"

"- The rational Theist could not accept a religion in which one idealization of god superceded another idealization of god." (This does not impute what the rational Theist could accept but only what the rational Theist could not accept)

I coined the phrase for lack of a better term, and not to be taken literally. The rational Theist concept is specific to the two 'commandments', but you can make of it what you will. Queen Annie seems pleased, who knows it might be the next big thing!
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 08:08 am
ra·tion·al (rsh-nl) adj.
1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior.


I left out the mathematical definitions of irrational numbers (and in so doing, retained the whole school of higher ancient Greek thought...)

Another:

rational - having its source in or being guided by the intellect (distinguished from experience or emotion); "a rational analysis"

synonyms:
logical - capable of or reflecting the capability for correct and valid reasoning; "a logical mind"
reasonable, sensible - showing reason or sound judgment; "a sensible choice"; "a sensible person"
sane - mentally healthy; free from mental disorder; "appears to be completely sane"
irrational - not consistent with or using reason; "irrational fears"; "irrational animals"

+++++

Personally speaking, I will say (and can provide several testimonies blah blah blah) that I am very capable of valid reasoning, make far more sound judgments than stupid ones (in everyday stuff), am more mentally healthy than I've ever been (I can back this one up, too) and have very few fears of any reasonable sort and probably no irrational fears (at this time).

Now--I know that you guys posting on this thread can probably say the very same with the same degree of true honesty.

Yet, I know from reading posts that we present a diverse sampling of theistic (or atheistic) viewpoints...

So can anyone of us truly remain 'rational' by saying that anything that differs from our own view (theism or atheism) in general is irrational by nature? Merely because it is not something that is logical to our own thought processes? I don't think that is a fair or legitimate call. It's one of those 'truth' issues (see this thread) and it would seem that for either a theist or atheist or something in between to insist that another person is irrational for not sharing the same viewpoint would cast a shadow on the rational state of the one doing the insisting...

Based on some sort of vague fear or insecurity, this would be. To insist is to need a handhold where there wasn't one naturally...

I DO believe in logic, but I also believe in individuality of the reasoning cognitive process--evidenced by the development of our civilization through the myriad contributions of assorted genuises of all flavors and styles.

So--what I'm meandering to is this:

being rational is not actually related to the theism part--that is, what a person understands/believes/holds as true and valid for themselves.

The rational part is all about how you conduct yourself therein.

Rational thought applies not to what you believe or think but rather the manner in which you undertake such issues of individual subjective choice.

Does any of that make any sense?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 08:44 am
Chumly wrote:
I make no argument that the belief in god itself is rational, I make no argument that the rational Theist's beliefs in all personifications of god is rational. I make no argument that the rational Theist's concepts may be more benevolent. I make no argument that there may be a life force that is quite unlike the sorts of things that one hears in houses of worship. I make no argument that the rational Theist must embrace the entire spectrum of religious thought.
So the rational theist's beliefs may or may not be rational. . .

Profound. . .

Very profound. . .
Chumly wrote:
. . .
The rational Theist must accept that all types of god have equal merit. . .
Why?
Chumly wrote:
The rational Theist could not accept a religion in which one idealization of god superceded another idealization of god." (This does not impute what the rational Theist could accept but only what the rational Theist could not accept). . .
Again; why?
Chumly wrote:
I coined the phrase for lack of a better term, and not to be taken literally. . .
Or seriously. Laughing
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:32 am
dyslexia wrote:
common defititions of "religion" include metaphysical explanations, this, in itself, precludes "rationality."


Huh?

'Metaphysical' precludes rationality?

Or religion precludes rationality? (to which I heartily agree)

Certainly any inclusions of metaphysics into religion is superficial and misleading. Pseudo-mysticism at the farthest stretch.

Religion is not a mystery (from a logical viewpoint)

but 'truth' and the seeking thereof is definitely a perpetually intriguing adventure.

But not, by default, irrational.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:41 am
all metaphysical is non-rational.
all religion is metaphysical.
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:42 am
Okay, case in point:

I just found this:

Quote:
Rational egoism is the philosophical view that it is rational to act in one's own self-interest. Rational egoism is distinguished from psychological egoism in that this is not a claim about how people actually act, and from ethical egoism that it is not morally imperative to act egoistically.


This is just an example, mind you, so don't nobody get all riled up...

To me, 'rational egoism' is totally irrational. It makes no logical sense, to me, to approach life from a perspective that worries only about one's self. Why illogical?

Well, because unless a person has some sort of knowledge or guarantee that they will never need any sort of help (of any kind, at all!) for the rest of their life, it's foolish to expect the wheel to turn when one hasn't applied their share of the grease.

Sure, it may work for a while, but any lengthy success is a glaring neon sign on the forehead that says 'oblivion lives here.'

My certain outlook toward 'rational egoism,' however, at the moment doesn't really qualify as 'irrational,' unless, of course, I insist that others adopt my view just because I'm needing such a thing...

And I'm not. I'm a loner. Laughing

Anyway, for me, it is a line of thought that directly contradicts knowledge and understanding I have gained in a completely empirical, pragmatic fashion over the course of my 37 years. That is my logical conclusion--but logic and reason comprise a dynamic evolutionary process, subject to change at all times pending new and novel events.

For someone else, 'rational egoism' may be supported in the very same way it is contraindicated for me. Maybe things have not shown themselves in the same way to another the same as I've been shown--or perhaps it is my experience that is more limited and might possibly evolve in that direction.

Who knows?

Either way, it's valid: if the destination is at the end of a coherent path it is rational for the traveler.
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:45 am
dyslexia wrote:
all metaphysical is non-rational.
all religion is metaphysical.


Question

Surely you jest. Or you're just testing my gullibility factor, perhaps? Out of sincere amicable concern? Razz

Nah. You're kidding, aren't you?

If not, then certainly you can explain your conclusion in a logical, rational fashion? Because I'm really interested in that.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:55 am
dyslexia wrote:
all metaphysical is non-rational.
all religion is metaphysical.
Careful with those absolutes, mister.

They might go off. Laughing
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 10:06 am
I am, by no means, kidding. I would, however, add that my above statements re rationality and religion are not value judgements any more than saying 3+3=6. "rationality" is methodological" whereas "belief/faith/religion" must, perforce, transcend rationality into the metaphysical.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 10:39 am
Faith should be tested
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 01:38 pm
dyslexia wrote:
I am, by no means, kidding. I would, however, add that my above statements re rationality and religion are not value judgements any more than saying 3+3=6. "rationality" is methodological" whereas "belief/faith/religion" must, perforce, transcend rationality into the metaphysical.


Value aside (I figured value judgments were out of this discussion by default, anyway)--I'm seeking rational theism or atheism processes here. Either one is equally viable for this discussion, IMO.

So, my question is: do you have some sort of historical support of this, or is just what you feel/think/believe? And if so, how did you arrive at that conclusion, from a reasoning standpoint?
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 09:43 pm
queen annie wrote:
Okay, case in point:

I just found this:

Quote:
Rational egoism is the philosophical view that it is rational to act in one's own self-interest. Rational egoism is distinguished from psychological egoism in that this is not a claim about how people actually act, and from ethical egoism that it is not morally imperative to act egoistically.


This is just an example, mind you, so don't nobody get all riled up...

To me, 'rational egoism' is totally irrational. It makes no logical sense, to me, to approach life from a perspective that worries only about one's self. Why illogical?

Hi there queenie. I am a rational egoist, and I think it is quite logical.
Quote:

Well, because unless a person has some sort of knowledge or guarantee that they will never need any sort of help (of any kind, at all!) for the rest of their life, it's foolish to expect the wheel to turn when one hasn't applied their share of the grease.

Perhaps if the Egoist in question has no foresight. Ones best interest extends past ones next move, you know.

It is in my best interests to care for my loved ones. Why? because I love them, and it gives me pleasure to do so. It is in my best interests to save my money. I like having money.
It is also in my best interests for people to like me. I can get more done that way.
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 10:59 pm
Doktor S wrote:
Hi there queenie.
Hi Dok!

Quote:
I am a rational egoist, and I think it is quite logical.

And, truly, you seem to be one of the more consistent and reasonable logic-minded posters that I've observed.

Quote:
Perhaps if the Egoist in question has no foresight. Ones best interest extends past ones next move, you know.

Indeed. Good point.

Quote:
It is in my best interests to care for my loved ones. Why? because I love them, and it gives me pleasure to do so. It is in my best interests to save my money. I like having money.
It is also in my best interests for people to like me. I can get more done that way.

And the way you explain it, it is certainly ordered, rational, and consistent. A fine way that you have chosen for yourself--primarily, of course, because it obviously is yours and it fits.

I'm glad you posted because I was hoping for some input from a 'rational egoist' (since it was my 'google discovery of the day' and I lacked input from another viewpoint).

And you also support my contention that it is not the belief that defaults a soul as either rational or irrational--but rather the associated behavior, etc.

If only we could all just behave...

Nevermind. Bad idea. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 11:14 pm
Behaving is no fun. Id rather get drunk and ****
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Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 11:24 pm
Ya gotta love doks honesty... :wink: LOL
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Mar, 2006 11:34 pm
Re: Rational Theists Step Forward
Chumly wrote:
Why are Christians and Muslims and Jews irrational as per an externalized monotheist non-corporeal being, when there is just as much likelihood that god is personified in, or as, polytheist non-corporeal beings and/or a real living being, and/or real living beings, and/or a real thing and/or real things?

Simply by espousing an externalized monotheist non-corporeal being based on belief in no way exclusively delineates god.

Simply by espousing an externalized monotheist non-corporeal being based on belief, in no way makes other contradictory beliefs of god less likely.

- The rational Theist must accept that all types of god have equal merit.

- The rational Theist could not accept a religion in which one idealization of god superceded another idealization of god.

Rational Theists Step Forward!


Hey now Mr. Chumly Sir... I'm pretty darn rational sometimes. (*note I said sometimes... Very Happy )

Bwaaaaaa hahaha! Boo Yaa!

You say there is just as much likelihood that god is personified in, or as, polytheist non-corporeal beings and/or a real living being, and/or real living beings, and/or a real thing and/or real things?

Why?

My next question is believing all that is what you would consider a "rational theist"?

Oh boy... LOL
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 01:22 am
I think what chum-o is saying, is that given a belief in a creator deity based on several theistic arguments for same, what is to say he is not a real physical being, in a real physical place? Or a council of beings. Or an entire civilization of beings.
What makes the non-corporeal monotheistic being more likely?
And if that isn't what he is saying, it is what I'm saying now Razz
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 01:24 am
neologist wrote:
Faith should be tested

How would you test, and what method of execution would you see fit for those that tested positive?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 02:33 am
Doktor S wrote:
I think what chum-o is saying, is that given a belief in a creator deity based on several theistic arguments for same, what is to say he is not a real physical being, in a real physical place? Or a council of beings. Or an entire civilization of beings.
What makes the non-corporeal monotheistic being more likely?
And if that isn't what he is saying, it is what I'm saying now Razz
Yuppers that is exactly it.

I would argue all permutations of god are equally likely, so given that one is a Theist, it is relatively more rational to believe all permutations of god than not to.

Then things got more interesting as Queen Annie thought it suited her views (and why not, it is more rational) and others chimed with their views, so I officially codified it to make sure my budding religion could get tax exempt status, and I could assume the rightful place as Chief Priest and Bottle Washer (CPBW the Unpronounceable).

Here are the two Commandments:

"- The rational Theist must accept that all types of god have equal merit"

"- The rational Theist could not accept a religion in which one idealization of god superceded another idealization of god."(This does not impute what the rational Theist could accept but only what the rational Theist could not accept)
0 Replies
 
 

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