What is truth?

Doktor S wrote:

Jason,

Quote:

How is it that the word "truth" has no meaning? In what way can a rational person think of such nonsense?

Ok then, since you are obviously smarter than me, why don't you give me an example of truth free of context?
Once you utterly fail at that maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

I don't know about being smarter than you, Dok...and I don't know how to measure such thing. But let's carry on.

I can give you examples of "truth" free of nonsense though.

(1) "I have always gotten my hands wet when I submerge them in water."

(2) " I speak more than one language"

(3) "I'm a human male"

(4) "The sea appears blue during the day because the sky reflects on it."

(5) " I have always been able to see my reflection in the mirror."

Do you want more truth?

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(1) "I have always gotten my hands wet when I submerge them in water."

(2) " I speak more than one language"

(3) "I'm a human male"

(4) "The sea appears blue during the day because the sky reflects on it."

(5) " I have always been able to see my reflection in the mirror."

Spoken like a true egotist. Wink

I'm not saying egotist is bad.

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Gosh, Jason. Are you sure your perception of reality represents the truth?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

(1) "I have always gotten my hands wet when I submerge them in water."

(2) " I speak more than one language"

(3) "I'm a human male"

(4) "The sea appears blue during the day because the sky reflects on it."

(5) " I have always been able to see my reflection in the mirror."

Spoken like a true egotist. I'm not saying egotist is bad.

Why am I an egotist...because I included myself in the example? Come on!

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neologist wrote:

Gosh, Jason. Are you sure your perception of reality represents the truth?

I'm not expecting you to be logical, neo. But according to my examples...do you think they don't constitute as truth? Do they qualify as being true?

I know those examples aren't lies...can they have a mote of truth?

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Jason, I'm just pulling your leg, but let's review each one.

(1) "I have always gotten my hands wet when I submerge them in water."
When you speak of this person, "I", who exactly is it? Are you sure about your own existence? Another aspect of your presumed reality is "getting your hands wet." Are you sure that everybody that dips their hand in water gets it wet? How dependable are our senses of touch and sight?

(2) " I speak more than one language"
That you speak more than one language is your personal perception from what you have "learned" wthin your environment. Aren't all languages just one human language? Can you communicate with other animals?

(3) "I'm a human male" This one presents a real problem. When we are first concieved, we are neither boy or girl, and some humans come out with both sex organs. Doe your penis make you a male? How about those people that must have a sex change to feel they are male or female? How about homosexuals? What is a human male?

(4) "The sea appears blue during the day because the sky reflects on it." I've seen lake water that looks green, then sometimes blue while the sun is shining. I've seen "blue" and "blue-green" water during a cloudy day.

(5) " I have always been able to see my reflection in the mirror."
No doubt, but not everyone is able to "see."

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Jason Proudmoore wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Awww come on now Jason... I'm not the one lost in the language... you are dear. Very lost.

Is that a fact (is it the truth?)?

It was probably about as much of a fact when I said it as it was when you said it, eh? :wink:

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hephzibah wrote:
Because all you can seem to see is that there are words that decribe a word.

I see what is presented to me, dear.

Well darlin, I have my doubts about that...

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hephzibah wrote:
Yet every word has a meaning that goes beyond just words.

How can this be?

It just is Jason. When I say wall it is a word used to describe something within the construction of a building... a wall. The definition is one thing, the wall is something different. The word wall is not the wall... it only describes what it is.

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hephzibah wrote:
Go ahead... slap me silly... I double dog dare ya... I'll open up a can of whoop a** on you so quick your head will spin! HIYA!!!! LOL

In order for me to slap you silly, we have to be close by.

Stranger things have happened. Very Happy

Quote:

hephzibah wrote:
What I meant by the other things I said is simply this. Stop looking at the language because words are more than just words.

Words are words with definition (s).

Not using definitions will most likely lead to misunderstandings and confusion.

Exactly, and I used the definition, and even showed how the definition fit into what I said and how I said it. It only leads to misunderstandings and confusion when one does not realize that a word is only a word used to describe something else. Something bigger than the word itself.

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hephzibah wrote:
They define things that are bigger than the words themselves.

"Bigger than the words themselves"? Can you explain it?

See above example about the wall.

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hephzibah wrote:
Look at the whole picture. Not just one part.

That's what I do.

Harumph!

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hephzibah wrote:
CI wrote:

Quote:
"Truth" is in the eye of the beholder.

Wise words. Very wise words indeed.

Gotta run. Catch ya later.

Well shweethart, I disagree. What you perceive as truth and what I perceive as truth could be two completely different things. Whether the two agree or not has no effect on how truthful it is to either of us.

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echi wrote:

(bookmark for the truth)

LOL cute Echi...

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Doktor S wrote:

Truth?
I chuckle when I see this word bandied about as if it had meaning.
So many people offer 'the truth' and seek 'the truth' without ever asking 'the truth about what exactly?
The truth is simply that which is true, and can only have meaning within the confines of context.
'It is the truth that red is a colour' is a meaningful statement.
'It is the truth' is not.
Context.

Standing ovation for dok! Whoooooo! You say things so much better than I. Hmmm... I think I might be jealous!

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Everything we perceive is context. If a chld was told what is commonly known as red is really blue, that child will always see that color as red. It's also true of most thing learned throughout our life. One person's truth is not always another person's truth. Context.

Whether the child grows up believing red is blue or not, that does not change the fact that red is red. It's just not "truth" to that child to say that. So yes... context.

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heph, But we're talking about individual truth, not what some majority in the same clan thinks.

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See? Neologist did it: "Gosh, Jason. Are you sure your perception of reality represents the truth?"
He is equating "truth" with "reality". In effect he's asking Jason if he is sure his perception of the Truth is true, or if his perception of Reality is real. "TRUTH" must correspond to some man-made standards--logical, statistical correlational, canons of evidence, and other such criteria. "REALITY" is neither true nor false; it's just what it is. Our PROPOSITIONS about it are true or false depending on how they conform to the above kinds of standards.
Now I'm being boring. Sorry.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Jason, I'm just pulling your leg, but let's review each one.

With all this nonsense, you have proven to me that you are out of your mindjust like so many in this forum.
(Mind youas I read all this baloneyI'm laughing my lungs outand that's the mere truth.)

cicerone imposter wrote:

(1) "I have always gotten my hands wet when I submerge them in water."
When you speak of this person, "I", who exactly is it? Are you sure about your own existence? Another aspect of your presumed reality is "getting your hands wet." Are you sure that everybody that dips their hand in water gets it wet? How dependable are our senses of touch and sight?

I'm using this "reality" to describe what is being presented to meaccording to definition.

Use the rules, man. Without words we would be roaming the world aimlessly.

cicerone imposter wrote:

(2) " I speak more than one language"
That you speak more than one language is your personal perception from what you have "learned" wthin your environment. Aren't all languages just one human language? Can you communicate with other animals?

What the hell did you just say? Are you out of your mind? What kind of reasoning is this?
I clearly said "more than one language"and to be more specific human language.

cicerone imposter wrote:

(3) "I'm a human male" This one presents a real problem. When we are first concieved, we are neither boy or girl, and some humans come out with both sex organs. Doe your penis make you a male? How about those people that must have a sex change to feel they are male or female? How about homosexuals? What is a human male?

Oh, manyou are truly insane. Last time I checked, I was a human maleand it was true when I checked.

cicerone imposter wrote:

(4) "The sea appears blue during the day because the sky reflects on it." I've seen lake water that looks green, then sometimes blue while the sun is shining. I've seen "blue" and "blue-green" water during a cloudy day.

I'm not talking about the lakeI'm talking about the sea, man .Your example is rendered as truth too. Why are you trying to analyze this example with such crap? What is your motive?

cicerone imposter wrote:

(5) " I have always been able to see my reflection in the mirror."
No doubt, but not everyone is able to "see."

I mean that I have ALWAYS been able to see MY reflection in the mirrorI'm not talking about other people. I can even go blind right now, and that statement would hold true (only until the point when I lost my sight). What are you trying to say? If you want to say something, say itand Stop with the nonsense.

Laughing

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JLN, You're not being boring. Clarity is always appreciated; otherwise our perceptions of what we are thinking can be confusing from one person to the next. I know I'm guilty of not being clear in many of my posts.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

heph, But we're talking about individual truth, not what some majority in the same clan thinks.

I am aware of this CI, and I actually agree with you about the "one persons truth is not another person's truth". However, there are some truths that don't change no matter what anyone believes about it. A wall is a wall whether you believe walls exist or not. If you try to walk through it because you choose to believe there is not a wall there, or walls don't exist, I guarantee you are going to fall on your butt and probably have a good bump on your head.

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Between sea and lake as it pertains to the color of the water, how much difference can there be?

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hephzibah wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
heph, But we're talking about individual truth, not what some majority in the same clan thinks.

I am aware of this CI, and I actually agree with you about the "one persons truth is not another person's truth".

Can you provide at least one example of such thing, heph?

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Sure Jason, but you'll have to give me about a half an hour... it's time for me to leave work. I'll be home about 11:30 and will have an answer for you then. Cya. Very Happy

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Between sea and lake as it pertains to the color of the water, how much difference can there be?

What are you trying to say? I'm talking about the sea. I'm not talking about any lake.

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It's one thing for us to cite true statements, another to raise the level of abstraction and discuss what it is about such statements that make them true.

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What is truth?

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