Let's start with our dead soldiers who fought and died in Iraq for...what again?
H2O_MAN wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:If the democrats win the majority in congress, then we can see if their performance rating goes up or remains the same.
Democrat performance:
How could it get any worse?
Ummmm, the Democrats have had a pretty good majority in Congress for going on two years now. And they have done pretty much diddly squat related to anything they promised they would do. But so long as they are Democrats, Democrats apparently deem their incompetence to be more forgivable.
The GOP mostly expects more from their elected officials; therefore they are far less likely to excuse them when they are incompetent.
Foxfyre wrote:H2O_MAN wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:If the democrats win the majority in congress, then we can see if their performance rating goes up or remains the same.
Democrat performance:
How could it get any worse?
Ummmm, the Democrats have had a pretty good majority in Congress for going on two years now. And they have done pretty much diddly squat related to anything they promised they would do. But so long as they are Democrats, Democrats apparently deem their incompetence to be more forgivable.
The GOP mostly expects more from their elected officials; therefore they are far less likely to excuse them when they are incompetent.
I'm sure the Dems would have done better with less blatant and willful obstructionism from the Republicans, who used each and every trick they could to block and delay legislation in both the House and the Senate. The 'filibuster' was used several multiples of how often it has been in the past, and in the house, the Republican leadership will do things like make 10 motions to adjourn per day, all of which must be voted on... childish ****, really.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Foxfyre wrote:H2O_MAN wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:If the democrats win the majority in congress, then we can see if their performance rating goes up or remains the same.
Democrat performance:
How could it get any worse?
Ummmm, the Democrats have had a pretty good majority in Congress for going on two years now. And they have done pretty much diddly squat related to anything they promised they would do. But so long as they are Democrats, Democrats apparently deem their incompetence to be more forgivable.
The GOP mostly expects more from their elected officials; therefore they are far less likely to excuse them when they are incompetent.
I'm sure the Dems would have done better with less blatant and willful obstructionism from the Republicans, who used each and every trick they could to block and delay legislation in both the House and the Senate. The 'filibuster' was used several multiples of how often it has been in the past, and in the house, the Republican leadership will do things like make 10 motions to adjourn per day, all of which must be voted on... childish ****, really.
Cycloptichorn
And of course the dem minority never tried to block, obstruct, or otherwise stall everything the repubs tried to do when they controlled congress?
mysteryman wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Foxfyre wrote:H2O_MAN wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:If the democrats win the majority in congress, then we can see if their performance rating goes up or remains the same.
Democrat performance:
How could it get any worse?
Ummmm, the Democrats have had a pretty good majority in Congress for going on two years now. And they have done pretty much diddly squat related to anything they promised they would do. But so long as they are Democrats, Democrats apparently deem their incompetence to be more forgivable.
The GOP mostly expects more from their elected officials; therefore they are far less likely to excuse them when they are incompetent.
I'm sure the Dems would have done better with less blatant and willful obstructionism from the Republicans, who used each and every trick they could to block and delay legislation in both the House and the Senate. The 'filibuster' was used several multiples of how often it has been in the past, and in the house, the Republican leadership will do things like make 10 motions to adjourn per day, all of which must be voted on... childish ****, really.
Cycloptichorn
And of course the dem minority never tried to block, obstruct, or otherwise stall everything the repubs tried to do when they controlled congress?
From time to time the Dems did do exactly that; but nowhere near the frequency of the Republicans. Each and every vote in the Senate is Fillibustered; Every vote in the House is delayed several times by useless procedural gimmicks.
I'll hunt around for a chart, but IIRC, the Republicans had engaged in more then twice the number of instances of obstruction as the last Congress did in total - and this was only halfway through the term.
It's not logical, when one team is equally responsible for the failure to pass legislation, to blame the other team. It isn't as if they aren't trying.
Rest assured that this upcoming election may end a bunch of this, as the Dems will pick up even larger majorities in both houses, and make much of the road-blocks ineffective.
Cycloptichorn
mysteryman wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Foxfyre wrote:H2O_MAN wrote:cicerone imposter wrote:If the democrats win the majority in congress, then we can see if their performance rating goes up or remains the same.
Democrat performance:
How could it get any worse?
Ummmm, the Democrats have had a pretty good majority in Congress for going on two years now. And they have done pretty much diddly squat related to anything they promised they would do. But so long as they are Democrats, Democrats apparently deem their incompetence to be more forgivable.
The GOP mostly expects more from their elected officials; therefore they are far less likely to excuse them when they are incompetent.
I'm sure the Dems would have done better with less blatant and willful obstructionism from the Republicans, who used each and every trick they could to block and delay legislation in both the House and the Senate. The 'filibuster' was used several multiples of how often it has been in the past, and in the house, the Republican leadership will do things like make 10 motions to adjourn per day, all of which must be voted on... childish ****, really.
Cycloptichorn
And of course the dem minority never tried to block, obstruct, or otherwise stall everything the repubs tried to do when they controlled congress?
Correct. The only ace in the hole the Republicans have had is a Republican President and since the House and Senate GOP has not been in lockstep with him, that was only a slight advantage.
Remember back when the GOP threatened a 'nuclear remedy' to the constant filibusters they were experiencing from the Dems in the Senate? It is considered the duty of the opposition to try to defeat legislation they oppose. The GOP nevertheless got some good legislation passed when they were in the majority mostly because they were more together on what good legislation looked like. The Dems haven't done as well on that front.
With a Democratic President coupled with a Democratically controlled Congress, however, things could dramatically improve for the Democrats on getting things done. The concern for the GOP and/or conservatives is what those things will be that will be done.
eoe wrote:Let's start with our dead soldiers who fought and died in Iraq for...what again?
What's your point?
BTW, Democrats are not known for getting things done ....
Politically, there is no way we can lose by employing this tactic. Check out the complete list of Senate legislation that enjoyed majority support in the Senate, but which minority Republicans were able to successfully defeat via filibuster during the 110th Congress:
Chris Bowers :: Memo to Senate Democrats: Force Republicans To Actually Filibuster
1. January 17, Reid Amendment to Legislative Transparency and Accountability Act of 2007: a bill to provide greater transparency in the legislative process.
2. January 24, Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007: a bill to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to provide for an increase in the Federal minimum wage.
3. February 5, A bill to express the sense of Congress on Iraq: disapproving of the troop escalation in Iraq.
4. February 17, A bill to express the sense of Congress on Iraq: disapproving of the troop escalation in Iraq (again).
5. April 17, Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007: an original bill to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2007 for the intelligence and intelligence-related activities of the United States Government, the Intelligence Community Management Account, and the Central Intelligence Agency Retirement and Disability System, and for other purposes.
6. April 18, Medicare Prescription Drug Price Negotiation Act of 2007: a bill to amend part D of title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for fair prescription drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries.
7. June 11, No confidence vote on Alberto Gonzales: a joint resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales no longer holds the confidence of the Senate and of the American people.
8. June 21, Baucus Amendment to CLEAN Energy Act of 2007: To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide for energy advancement and investment, and for other purposes.
9. June 26, Employee Free Choice Act of 2007: A bill to amend the National Labor Relations Act to establish an efficient system to enable employees to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to provide for mandatory injunctions for unfair labor practices during organizing efforts, and for other purposes.
10. July 11, Webb Amendment to the national defense authorization act for fiscal year 2008: to specify minimum periods between deployment of units and members of the Armed Forces for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom.
I honestly do not know how this compares to the rate of Democratic filibusters against majority-supported legislation from 2003-2006, and I don't really care. The point of this post is not to argue that Senate Republicans in the minority have been more "obstructionist" than Senate Democrats were during their time in the minority. The point is, instead, to list the extremely popular legislation that Republicans have blocked, and to argue that Senate Democrats should have actually made them stand up in the well of the Senate and filibuster each one of these bills for multiple days. Make them actually filibuster raising the minimum wage for several days. Make them actually filibuster a vote of disapproval on the troop escalation for several days. Make them actually filibuster lower prescription drug prices for several days. Make them actually filibuster cleaner energy for several days. Make them actually filibuster increasing workers rights for several days. Make them actually filibuster mandatory time home between troop deployments for American soldiers in Iraq for several days. Make Senate Republicans tell the whole country, non-stop, for three or four days that they are opposed to each of these things. Make them stay in Washington over the weekend to do these things. Drive them to the point of physical exhaustion if they don't think American troops deserve any rest. Then, after long, sleepless nights of talking, watch them conduct interviews reporters afterwards to defend their actions. (Those should be fun to watch!) As Campaign for America's Future argues, make them do this to expose what they really stand for.
I am with Campaign for America's Future. If Republicans are going to block this legislation, make them pay a big price in the eyes of the American people for doing so. Senate Democrats, led by Harry Reid, need to step up, because right now they are letting Republicans get away with blocking popular legislation basically for free. That is not acceptable. That is not leadership. It certainly is not a way to reinforce to the public what Republicans actually stand for. Can you image the political price Senate Republicans would have paid for spending four days and three nights filibustering Webb's amendment on troop deployments? That is the sort of thing that holds potentially catastrophic consequences on their image of years-talk about not supporting the troops! And that is exactly what Senate Democrats need to do.
If Kent Conrad it right, we are already close to seeing this tactic in action. So, let's do everything we can to push them over the edge. Help make Senate Democrats to their job by making Senate Republicans actually stand up and filibuster our most popular legislation. Sign the petition by Campaign for America's Future. More importantly, as always, call your Democratic Senators and tell them you want to see Republicans actually filibuster if they want to stop our popular legislation. Cloture votes are simply not enough. Make Republicans stand in the well of the Senate and give every fiber of their beings to support their unpopular causes.
Call your Democratic Senators. Tell them it is time for Republicans to be exposed. It is time to play hardball.
Call your Democratic Senators and remind them that they are a bunch of worthless do nothing losers.
CI
This is why I don't have any confidence in a democratic congress. They haven't a working majority in congress because of rules that give an advantage to the minority in congress. But it was a democratic congress that passed these rules. Why should we need 60% of senators to vote on wether to be able to consider a bill in the senate. What the hell happened to 50%+ voting to consider a bill. All this shyt is just that, political games that the politicians use to cover their a-ses. All our institutions are corrupt since the supreme court changed the rules so that graft is now political contributions. The only change your going to see in washington is a new group of politicians getting paid off. Ill vote dem this year only because they are only slightly better then the alternative. Mr Obama is already backtracking on lots of things he promised early in the election. Just another crooked politician. Dam , this is the most bluster i've put out in a long time!
Two items out today involving Charlottesville and our most famous resident, Thomas Jefferson.
The family of comedian George Carlin, who died this week, asked in his obituary that donations be made to the American Heart Association or to The Thomas Jefferson Center For Free Expression, which is based here. It fights for people who they feel have seen their right to free speech limited.
And Monticello, TJ's home, will host President Bush on the 4th of July for the annual naturalization ceremony for about 100 new citizens. One of the leaders of the local Dems has urged the public attending to wear their "impeach Bush" shirts. I suspect (hope) that later in the day that idea will get snuffed.
A leader of the local Repubs said they were honored to have Mr Bush come but it is unlikely that any of their candidates for elections in this area will be able to attend because they have already committed to appear (and campaign) at 4th of July celebrations in various small towns in their respective districts.
(Three other sitting Presidents have appeared at Monticello on previous Independence Days: FDR, Truman and Ford. The scheduled speaker this year, Ken Burns, "graciously" offered to come next year when the White House called Monticello and accepted the open invitation Monticello has with all sitting Presidents).
rabel22 wrote:CI
This is why I don't have any confidence in a democratic congress. They haven't a working majority in congress because of rules that give an advantage to the minority in congress. But it was a democratic congress that passed these rules. Why should we need 60% of senators to vote on wether to be able to consider a bill in the senate. What the hell happened to 50%+ voting to consider a bill. All this shyt is just that, political games that the politicians use to cover their a-ses. All our institutions are corrupt since the supreme court changed the rules so that graft is now political contributions. The only change your going to see in washington is a new group of politicians getting paid off. Ill vote dem this year only because they are only slightly better then the alternative. Mr Obama is already backtracking on lots of things he promised early in the election. Just another crooked politician. Dam , this is the most bluster i've put out in a long time!
I agree with you; this democratic congress has voted funds for the war in Iraq while they are aware most Americans wants our troops to come home. What galls me more is that Obama voted for the "amended" FISA legislation that immunes this president and his cohorts for past wrongs.
They have essentially told Bush it's okay to destroy our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
H2O_MAN wrote:eoe wrote:Let's start with our dead soldiers who fought and died in Iraq for...what again?
What's your point?
This reminds me of Dick Cheney's response to the question (paraphrased: "What do you say about the struggles with th Iraq war, and how not the majority of the country feels that there is nothing to gain there?
Waterboy, you got a lot to learn. The war(s) have been horrible failures. The American people have suffered a great loss.
H2O_MAN wrote:BTW, Democrats are not known for getting things done ....
And Republican's are known for a small government.
T
K
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The republicans are okay with spending 13 billion every month in Iraq, but feel it's a waste of money to spend on universal health care - for Americans; not to mention the deterioration of the US infrastructure, loss of jobs, loss of homes, and higher cost of fuel and food.
This has been, in it's longevity, a remarkable (and perhaps record breaking) thread.
Unfortunately, it is has assumed a role as uber-thread.
Far more than issues specific to Obama have been debated on this thread, which is the combined result of A2Kers devoting virtually all of their lives to this forum, and a general taxonomic laziness.
I realizes, entirely, that my actions are of little import to the A2K community, but I've decided and now declare that I will no longer post to this thread.
I hope other members will give thought to the dynamics of this thread and decide similarly.
Shorter threads on more specific issues will better support the forum.
(IMHO)
I see your point, but we don't benefit from having three or four parallel discussions either.
See DC gun ban lifted and all the other threads.
T
K
O
Quote:I realizes, entirely, that my actions are of little import to the A2K community, but I've decided and now declare that I will no longer post to this thread.
'Tis a consumation devoutly to be wished.
Diest TKO wrote:
Waterboy, you got a lot to learn. The war(s) have been horrible failures. The American people have suffered a great loss.
You need to lay off the crack pipe DT. The GWOT and OEF are going quite well and they
would have gone much smoother if the liberals and the liberal media hadn't cut-n-run.
The American people have forgotten what suffering and great losses are.
Put Obama in the white house and we will all experience true suffering and great loss.
H2O_MAN wrote:Diest TKO wrote:
Waterboy, you got a lot to learn. The war(s) have been horrible failures. The American people have suffered a great loss.
You need to lay off the crack pipe DT. The GWOT and OEF are going quite well and they
would have gone much smoother if the liberals and the liberal media hadn't cut-n-run.
The American people have forgotten what suffering and great losses are.
Put Obama in the white house and we will all experience true suffering and great loss.
Whine all you like, it won't make WMDs appear and it won't justify the war. The American people have not forgotten what great suffering is, the administration has.
T
K
O
