Obama '08?

Or a big ol' party.

okie wrote:

I don't think he is being straight with the voters.

Why do you think that?

And please keep it above the level of "because he refuses to release his birth certificate* which therefore means he's hiding something like he's probably not even a citizen...)

*false

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Using the word "radical" says nothing except to identify a certain group that usually includes the whole; "Radical christians" doesn't speak about all christians, but the repeated use of "radical Muslims" usually has a different meaning to most Americans. That you are incapable of understanding these "niceties" shows your complete ignorance of this issue.

Cyclo has shown this inference from the links he provided; nothing will change your perception except you show your conservative bigotry well.

I agree with your point, but if there was a fairly large group of radical Christians that are working for and calling for the extermination of an entire race of people and of nations, then I think the term, "radical Christian" would be a more commonly used term, and rightfully so.

I think most people are very capable of understanding the niceties of the difference between radical Muslims and average Muslims. And as I explained in detail to cyclops, I have no problem with average Muslims, and I am in total favor of freedom of religion, but I am not particularly in favor of moving toward a government with a majority of average Muslims running it, so I would not vote for them most of the time. I might vote for certain candidates, but that decision would need to be thrown in the mix with all kinds of issues with each candidate.

So when people view Muslims with a skeptical view, this could occur on several levels, one being in regard to radicals that are tied to terrorists, and other levels that might include voting for a good candidate that may be a Muslim, which people would still need to evaluate in terms of the views held. The same thing is done with all candidates, their personal and religious convictions are always fairly well known and considered when people vote. I think any candidate not in the mainstream of American traditions and thought have to prove themselves in terms of their beliefs and values.

0 Replies

I don't believe that Ellisons involvement with, say, the million-man march makes him an anti-semite, as I do not look at those who are involved with Islaam as anti-semites.

The problem with frontpagemag in this case is not the facts, it's the slant that is put on them. And I do believe this is an excellent example of the demonization of Islaam by your party that I was referring to earlier.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

okie wrote:

This quote from the following site, which sounds like it is expressing reasonable skepticism of his views:

"Indeed, although he has since denied it, Ellison was involved with NOI for ten long years. In that time, he participated in NOI rallies, including the Million Man March hate fest; he defended NOI hate speech; and he used such NOI aliases as Keith Hakim, Keith X Ellison, and Keith Ellison-Muhammad.

Am I the only person who doesn't remember the Million Man March as a hate fest? I thought at the time that it was a long overdue revival of African American manhood and fatherhood. I hear a lot of background noise about it with respect to Obama, as in, he'd be in big trouble if it turns out he was there, etc... but I can't for the life of me remember anything about it that would be reason to be ashamed for having participated in it.

0 Replies

okie wrote: I agree with your point, but if there was a fairly large group of radical Christians that are working for and calling for the extermination of an entire race of people and of nations, then I think the term, "radical Christian" would be a more commonly used term, and rightfully so.

You still don't "get it." Not all Muslims are calling for the extermination of an entire race of people. Not all "any group" is calling for the extermination of another group. Those are the facts. When the Bush administration rounded up Muslims to question them about their loyalties to the US, that was "wrong" and bigoted. You don't round up innocent people of any group because some are radicals.

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

Or a big ol' party.

okie wrote:
I don't think he is being straight with the voters.

Why do you think that?

And please keep it above the level of "because he refuses to release his birth certificate* which therefore means he's hiding something like he's probably not even a citizen...)

*false

Just the whole package deal, sozobe, the Change you can believe in, the new kind of politics image, and all the rest, give me a break is my answer. Here is a guy that builds his entire political future in Chicago, and claims he is a new kind of politician, ha ha. And his whole campaign is built on sloganeering, that means nothing to me, and when I analyze what he might mean in terms of subliminal messages, I am not at all impressed.

I read his book, and when I finished I got the distinct feeling I had just read a total snow job. Obama is just another run of the mill politician with the same old tired liberal politics, repackaged with different phrases and names, thats all. And when he claims he doesn't agree with his pastor and friend and spiritual advisor for 20 years, I doubt it very very seriously. I think Obama has very carefully nurtured a persona, an image, and one that hides his true beliefs. I have seen his anger flashed in very momentary ways during various points of the campaign, and they were just little tiny windows into what he is possibly all about. I think he comes from a very conflicted and confused past, and contrary to his image, he is a divider, not a uniter.

If he is elected, I hope I am wrong, I hope he turns out to be a reasonable guy once the responsibility falls totally on his shoulders. I give it a very slim chance that could conceivable happen, but I would not be optimistic.

0 Replies

If by 'reasonable guy' you mean 'promotes anything Conservative at all,' I think you will be disappointed. He's a liberal fellow. So what? Those running your party are unabashed Conservatives, why shouldn't he be proud of promoting his beliefs in the same way?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

You still don't "get it." Not all Muslims are calling for the extermination of an entire race of people. Not all "any group" is calling for the extermination of another group. Those are the facts. When the Bush administration rounded up Muslims to question them about their loyalties to the US, that was "wrong" and bigoted. You don't round up innocent people of any group because some are radicals.

No, you are twisting my posts. I have never claimed all Muslims are for the extermination of a race, nor does hardly anyone in the country believe that I doubt, much less prominent politicians. When did Bush round up Muslims without any evidence that they might be connected to something awry, ci? I don't think that happened. Now, FDR did something similar, but not Bush.

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

If by 'reasonable guy' you mean 'promotes anything Conservative at all,' I think you will be disappointed. He's a liberal fellow. So what? Those running your party are unabashed Conservatives, why shouldn't he be proud of promoting his beliefs in the same way?

Cycloptichorn

Sure, thats right, but he claims to admire Truman, Reagan, etc., which is a crock. He is more liberal than anybody that has come down the pike in a good long time, and I am not so naive as to not know that is why alot of the ultra leftists lined up behind this guy a long time ago. But he has been careful to nurture the idea that he is mainstream, maybe a moderate or something, which is not accurate. Unfortunately, I think the country is moving left, but I still think most of his supporters, including alot of young people that want to believe in some kind of political utopia, are unknowing dupes being drawn to the left by a candidate claiming to be middle of the road and mainstream with all these refreshing and grand ideas to straighten out the country.

0 Replies

Quote:

Sure, thats right, but he claims to admire Truman, Reagan, etc., which is a crock.

See, you don't pay attention to what he says, not really. He said that he admired Reagan for two things: 1, having new ideas that bucked the status quo at the time; and 2, for being such a great communicator of his beliefs and ideas.

He didn't endorse Reagan's political philosophy or anything.

Little accuracy problems like this destroy your message. You should look stuff like that up before posting.

The Republicans are chock full of 'grand ideas' to straighten out the country; what exactly is the difference when the dems do it?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Let me paraphrase the last couple pages of posts from Okie, so you guys won't have to keep asking him about his opinions.

"Obama is not a conservative. Therefore, I must destroy him, and no matter how ridiculous the charge against him, I will believe it, and more importantly, I will spread it around in an effort to make others believe it too. Yes, I am that big an assh*le."

0 Replies

Well, we all know it's common knowledge that the democrats are "the tax and spend party." The reality is, ofcoarse, that the republicans continue to create the largest deficits and the worst economic environment for the majority of middle class and poor Americans.

They keep ignoring the obvious to push their agenda; democrats are the tax and spend party, and republicans do better for everybody.

They seem to be able to ignore that millions of Americans are now losing their homes and cars, losing their jobs, and their wages have been stagnant for the past seven years, and the federal deficit is going through the roof for our children and grandchildren to pay.

0 Replies

Democrats are "tax and spend," and ci you are not too off the mark for Republicans lately. I would call them "don't raise taxes but still spend like there is no tomorrow" party. I do not favor either philosophy.

To further shed light on this matter of cyclops claim that Republicans are demonizing the Islamic religion, which I think I have dispelled, but I would like to point out the following poll results. According to the Pewresearch.org, the number of people residing in Islamic countries that believe suicide attacks on civilians are often or sometimes justified ranges from 13% in Morocco to 57% in Jordan. If this is not disturbing to cyclops and ci, then I would say they are not living in reality. It is encouraging that in some countries, the level of support for the U.S. fight against terrorists has risen, according to one site that I saw.

Another interesting subject on the Pew site is the number of people that are either very concerned or somewhat concerned about Islamic extremism in their country ranges from 37% in Poland to 84% in Russia. In America, it is about 70%, with several countries higher than the U.S., including India, Spain, Germany, Great Britain, Netherlands, and France. Now, unless the Republicans have been roaming all of those countries with their program of demonizing Muslims, then another explanation is of course much more logical. I know it is the desire of some people on this forum to try to blame everything on Republicans and George Bush, but reality speaks otherwise.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=248

0 Replies

kickycan wrote:

Let me paraphrase the last couple pages of posts from Okie, so you guys won't have to keep asking him about his opinions.

"Obama is not a conservative. Therefore, I must destroy him, and no matter how ridiculous the charge against him, I will believe it, and more importantly, I will spread it around in an effort to make others believe it too. Yes, I am that big an assh*le."

0 Replies

okie, Ofcoarse it's disturbing, but what you are advocating with your small bit of knowledge is that someone is able to identify those 13% to 57% who believe suicide attacks on civilians is justified. How do you, without damning all Muslims, that these statistics has any bearing on you or me?

Your emphasis continues to tell me, at least, that your mind is all screwed up!

Do you have statistics on how what percentage of Americans want to destroy all Muslims?

0 Replies

Another interesting tidbit from the Pew site, the number of people according to a poll that either have alot or some confidence in Osama Bin Laden in some Islamic countries ranges from 2% in Lebanon to 60% in Jordan. Other countries in the poll include Turkey at 7%, Morocco at 26%, Indonesia at 35%, and Pakistan at 51%.

ci and cyclops would probably chalk up such concerns over such things merely demonizing a non-problem.

0 Replies

okie wrote:

Another interesting tidbit from the Pew site, the number of people according to a poll that either have alot or some confidence in Osama Bin Laden in some Islamic countries ranges from 2% in Lebanon to 60% in Jordan. Other countries in the poll include Turkey at 7%, Morocco at 26%, Indonesia at 35%, and Pakistan at 51%.

ci and cyclops would probably chalk up such concerns over such things merely demonizing a non-problem.

okie, Just think for a moment if you can; what in hell does those statistics have to do with us? Put another way, how much fear does that create for your puny mind?

0 Replies

okie wrote:

Another interesting tidbit from the Pew site, the number of people according to a poll that either have alot or some confidence in Osama Bin Laden in some Islamic countries ranges from 2% in Lebanon to 60% in Jordan. Other countries in the poll include Turkey at 7%, Morocco at 26%, Indonesia at 35%, and Pakistan at 51%.

ci and cyclops would probably chalk up such concerns over such things merely demonizing a non-problem.

Well, can you think of anybody who is not pro Obama or pro Left who has challenged Muslim extremism or actively challenged Obama or any other pet leftwing sacred cow who has been praised or complimented or even not demonized in these threads--at least somebody who has been pretty active in in depth discussion of these issues? Even those who aren't taking snotty shots smile approvingly or shout out their equivalents of 'right on' as all toadys do.

We must be hitting some pretty raw nerves, you think?

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

okie wrote:
Another interesting tidbit from the Pew site, the number of people according to a poll that either have alot or some confidence in Osama Bin Laden in some Islamic countries ranges from 2% in Lebanon to 60% in Jordan. Other countries in the poll include Turkey at 7%, Morocco at 26%, Indonesia at 35%, and Pakistan at 51%.

ci and cyclops would probably chalk up such concerns over such things merely demonizing a non-problem.

okie, Just think for a moment if you can; what in hell does those statistics have to do with us? Put another way, how much fear does that create for your puny mind?

Those statistics have alot to do with us and the future of the well being of the world. And they have alot to do with lots of places around the world, including Europe. I think it speaks of a backward view of the world from closed societies, that needs changing, and I think the statistics have improved during the Bush administration.

ci, the number of people in the U.S. that would want to destroy all Muslims I am sure would be very very low, probably 1% or less. You can get 1% of people to be for almost anything. I would imagine more people would want George Bush to die than would want all Muslims to die.

0 Replies

Foxfyre wrote:

okie wrote:
Another interesting tidbit from the Pew site, the number of people according to a poll that either have alot or some confidence in Osama Bin Laden in some Islamic countries ranges from 2% in Lebanon to 60% in Jordan. Other countries in the poll include Turkey at 7%, Morocco at 26%, Indonesia at 35%, and Pakistan at 51%.

ci and cyclops would probably chalk up such concerns over such things merely demonizing a non-problem.

Well, can you think of anybody who is not pro Obama or pro Left who has challenged Muslim extremism or actively challenged Obama or any other pet leftwing sacred cow who has been praised or complimented or even not demonized in these threads--at least somebody who has been pretty active in in depth discussion of these issues? Even those who aren't taking snotty shots smile approvingly or shout out their equivalents of 'right on' as all toadys do.

We must be hitting some pretty raw nerves, you think?

Foxfyre, I think it is a matter of people who are idealistic wanting so desperately to believe that evil does not exist. Confronting something that is wrong takes gumption and it takes work. They would rather pretend the problems do not exist. Also, if you have a moral system of gray areas, it just isn't politically correct to condemn anything or anybody, perhaps even Osama Bin Laden is a nice guy, at least he deserves a trial under our civilian justice system, right?

0 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know