revel
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:42 am
nimh wrote:
Quote:
American Idol and American Politics

[..]


So you have the woman candidate who is a determined survivor even though it was pretty clear early on that she would not be the winner (winners don't keep being sent to the endangered zone).

Count me confused... how is this supposed to be a parallel to Hillary Clinton, the "inevitable" candidate who started out with a lead of hundreds of superdelegates and thought she'd be easily able to knock out the opposition by Super Tuesday?

She had all the establishment support and started out as by far the favourite to win, and only lost when she squandered massive amounts of money and foolishly decided she could skip the caucuses because she'd win without them too. But we're supposed to see her as the hardy underdog who fought her way through against all expectations?

Harumph.


I don't know, maybe like me, the writer didn't start paying too much attention to the elections until Iowa. Also I think you are reading too much into it. I don't think the author meant to say Hillary is doing well against all expectations, only that even though she is loosing badly she keep hanging on. Obama is a young guy with a mentor PR problem and McCain is an old guy people some people just like because he has been through so much. I only brought the article out because I find it kind of true and good for a smile at our selves. Lighten up a little, huh?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:50 am
But that's exactly the idea that I bristle at every time I see it... Hillary is doing WELL? Against all expectations? What on earth does that mean?

She's losing!!

She was long expected to win WV and KY!

Obama has more pledged delegates!

Obama has the majority of pledged delegates available! (As in, she CAN'T win more pledged delegates than him at this point.)

Obama has more superdelegates!

Obama has more of the popular vote!

The undeclared superdelegates have indicated that most of them think they shouldn't overturn the will of voters. The ones who don't think that want the more electable candidate and...

Obama is doing better than Hillary against McCain!

The only thing she's "doing well" is refusing to drop out and not, like, crying. She's continuing to campaign. That's nice but I don't really get the big deal -- what is so tough about that, really?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:54 am
sozobe wrote:
Exactly.

I don't like the last line as it applies to the race, either. Anyone want to tell Obama to his face that he hasn't worked his butt off to get this far? (This goes back to the early overwhelming establishment support, too -- who had to work harder to win Iowa, hmm?)

Harrumph.


Just watched last night's speech, it was a good 'un.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIRsLRBdgU

Transcript:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/20/transcript-barack-obamas-kentu
cky-oregon-primary-night-speech/



Obama has worked.... but he's had a tail wind the entire campaign.... Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:54 am
sozobe wrote:
But that's exactly the idea that I bristle at every time I see it... Hillary is doing WELL? Against all expectations? What on earth does that mean?

She's losing!!

She was long expected to win WV and KY!

Obama has more pledged delegates!

Obama has the majority of pledged delegates available! (As in, she CAN'T win more pledged delegates than him at this point.)

Obama has more superdelegates!

Obama has more of the popular vote!

The undeclared superdelegates have indicated that most of them think they shouldn't overturn the will of voters. The ones who don't think that want the more electable candidate and...

Obama is doing better than Hillary against McCain!

The only thing she's "doing well" is refusing to drop out and not, like, crying. She's continuing to campaign. That's nice but I don't really get the big deal -- what is so tough about that, really?


Maybe you didn't read this sentence from my previous post?

Quote:
I don't think the author meant to say Hillary is doing well against all expectations, only that even though she is loosing badly she keep hanging on.


Anyway, clearly it was mistake to paste the article, maybe I should have pasted the rest of it.

Quote:
So why do I think there are these, like, cosmic parallels?

Oh, it is just a function of genre. You see, when you cover an election as though it is a talent contest and you zero in on personalities rather than issues, then this is pretty much the sort of melodrama you can construct. It becomes about determined women, less experienced young men, and more hardened older men who know how to mix a stiff drink. You would find these personalities in any tubby novel for sale at an airport bookstore. Mercado, Archuleta and Cook are far more complex and interesting persons than the stock characters that the media has imposed on them. But at least the wrong done them by simplification is minor; they are after all entertainers, and if they attain their potential they will have plenty of opportunity to tell their real stories.

With regard to our political leaders, the infotainment approach obscures the most weighty matters ever to face our Republic, and does a grave disservice to voters whose fate hangs in the balance.


From the previous link
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:56 am
Er, either you edited or I misread... you didn't say that Hillary is doing well against all expectations. Sorry.

I'll leave my post though because I do see variations of that all over, and especially the thing I say at the end about wow, she's tough, iron lady, steel, etc. -- I'm not seeing it. She's continuing in campaign mode, which is a mode she's been in for much of her life. <shrug>
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 07:57 am
Cross-posted...

The article isn't a big deal, don't worry about posting it...
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:01 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Obama has worked.... but he's had a tail wind the entire campaign....


I know what you mean, but I disagree. Their positions flip-flopped, media-wise, over the course of the campaign. Up until Iowa, Hillary was the overwhelming favorite and the media was interested in a competitive campaign and were favorable (comparably speaking and with exceptions) to Obama. Then after Iowa and especially as Obama became the front-runner, that was reversed.

Both experienced the costs and benefits of being the front-runner. Hillary, however, had WAY more institutional support than Obama for most of the race.

Quote:
Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....


I have twice so far...
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:09 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Exactly.

I don't like the last line as it applies to the race, either. Anyone want to tell Obama to his face that he hasn't worked his butt off to get this far? (This goes back to the early overwhelming establishment support, too -- who had to work harder to win Iowa, hmm?)

Harrumph.


Just watched last night's speech, it was a good 'un.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIRsLRBdgU

Transcript:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/20/transcript-barack-obamas-kentu
cky-oregon-primary-night-speech/



Obama has worked.... but he's had a tail wind the entire campaign.... Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....

But as Soz pointed out, that is not correct. Clinton had a tail wind, a tail cyclone, until Iowa. In November and December, she was all anyone talked about. Obama was a nobody laboring in obscurity with the Bidens and Dodds of the party until someone in the press realized that he'd come close to matching Clinton in fund raising. Obama had to fight his way out of the pack to even get a mention with Edwards and Clinton. He had to build from scratch an organization to match (and eventually defeat) the monster Clinton machine in the Democratic party. To say that Clinton has been fighting against the wind for 16 years while Obama has been coasting is to selectively ignore the entire campaign before South Carolina.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:10 am
sozobe wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Obama has worked.... but he's had a tail wind the entire campaign....


I know what you mean, but I disagree. Their positions flip-flopped, media-wise, over the course of the campaign. Up until Iowa, Hillary was the overwhelming favorite and the media was interested in a competitive campaign and were favorable (comparably speaking and with exceptions) to Obama. Then after Iowa and especially as Obama became the front-runner, that was reversed.

Both experienced the costs and benefits of being the front-runner. Hillary, however, had WAY more institutional support than Obama for most of the race.

Quote:
Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....


I have twice so far...


as part of a group right? On the campaign trail? How much face time do you think you'll get with him if he's elected? Personal face time?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:15 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sozobe wrote:

Quote:
Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....


I have twice so far...


as part of a group right? On the campaign trail? How much face time do you think you'll get with him if he's elected? Personal face time?

Are you asking how much face time an average citizen can expect with a sitting President of the US? Is this supposed to be an argument against Obama, that he will not sit down with Soz for some bonding time?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:16 am
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama has opened an 8-point national lead on Republican John McCain as the U.S. presidential rivals turn their focus to a general election race, according to a Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday.

Obama, who was tied with McCain in a hypothetical head-to-head matchup last month, moved to a 48 percent to 40 percent lead over the Arizona senator in May as he took command of his grueling Democratic presidential duel with rival Hillary Clinton.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:16 am
engineer wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Exactly.

I don't like the last line as it applies to the race, either. Anyone want to tell Obama to his face that he hasn't worked his butt off to get this far? (This goes back to the early overwhelming establishment support, too -- who had to work harder to win Iowa, hmm?)

Harrumph.


Just watched last night's speech, it was a good 'un.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIRsLRBdgU

Transcript:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/05/20/transcript-barack-obamas-kentu
cky-oregon-primary-night-speech/



Obama has worked.... but he's had a tail wind the entire campaign.... Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to speak to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....

But as Soz pointed out, that is not correct. Clinton had a tail wind, a tail cyclone, until Iowa. In November and December, she was all anyone talked about. Obama was a nobody laboring in obscurity with the Bidens and Dodds of the party until someone in the press realized that he'd come close to matching Clinton in fund raising. Obama had to fight his way out of the pack to even get a mention with Edwards and Clinton. He had to build from scratch an organization to match (and eventually defeat) the monster Clinton machine in the Democratic party. To say that Clinton has been fighting against the wind for 16 years while Obama has been coasting is to selectively ignore the entire campaign before South Carolina.


sorry, I disagree. The media hand picked Obama because they wanted a horse race, headlines and people tuning in. The other candidates were familiar and not attention getting. Obama was new and a woman and a black (?) man both representing their group head to head for the first time was a program directors dream. Ratings and advertising revenue is what this campaign has been about. If Obama hadn't been in the race it would have been over long ago but the match up was too delicious and profitable.... so the media created this..... and the people bought it.... as they buy everything they're told to. Not to say Obama isn't smart, capable or hard working.... he is all these things.... but he was the chosen one to benefit Lord Mammon and that's the genesis of the Obama phenomenon
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:17 am
I'm not expecting any. I've had time to say "you're not working hard" to his face, though, twice... which contradicts your statement. That's all.

(And I did say something not too far from that the first time as it happens -- it was in October '07 and I told him he was taking too many outside shots, that he needed to drive to the basket more. Metaphorically speaking of course.)
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:18 am
engineer wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sozobe wrote:

Quote:
Hillary has been fighting against the wind for 16 years..... and I'd happily tell him that to his face.... except of course you and I will never get a chance to spesk to him personally fact to face.... we're just votes....


I have twice so far...


as part of a group right? On the campaign trail? How much face time do you think you'll get with him if he's elected? Personal face time?

Are you asking how much face time an average citizen can expect with a sitting President of the US? Is this supposed to be an argument against Obama, that he will not sit down with Soz for some bonding time?


no, it's an example of the silliness of sozs' statement...would I tell Obama to his face? What is this, recess?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:18 am
engineer wrote:
Are you asking how much face time an average citizen can expect with a sitting President of the US? Is this supposed to be an argument against Obama, that he will not sit down with Soz for some bonding time?


Laughing
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:23 am
too quick to laugh...because apparently you think it's possible someone could have some face time to tell Obama he didn't work hard enough? Or was it just a silly statement? Not like I have anything against silly statements....
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 08:25 am
Because I missed your comment, you mean? Nah.

My point was merely -- you seriously assert that Obama hasn't worked his butt off? Later you seemed to agree that yes, he's worked hard, but you think that he's done this well merely because of the media. I disagree. (I scoff at anti-Obama bias in the NYT daily... want some examples?)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 10:03 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Obama was new and a woman and a black (?) man both representing their group head to head for the first time was a program directors dream. Ratings and advertising revenue is what this campaign has been about. If Obama hadn't been in the race it would have been over long ago but the match up was too delicious and profitable.... so the media created this

I agree with this to some extent.

I mean, I think Obama is gifted enough as a politician that he would have risen above the likes of Richardson, Biden and Dodd anyway (all good, experienced guys, but not a hint of charisma, no appealing, overarching message, and in the case of Bill and Joe, a tendency to make many gaffes).

But yeah, I do think the media received Obama's candidacy with overwhelmingly favourable coverage, back in spring/summer last year, and again in January/February this year, exactly for the reasons you list. Ratings, ads. A competitive race just means more revenue.

I disagree, then, with the revisionist take that Obama was battling a disadvantage in the media last year. There were a couple of months in the autumn, for sure, when the media had bought into Hillary's inevitability schtick and buttressed her candidacy that way. But for half a year before that, the media was very pro-Obama. That was documented too - check back this old post for info about detailed monitoring research that was done.

But I'm surprised, Bear, that you dont notice that it's this very logic that has long since turned against Obama.

To any reasonable metric, Hillary had de facto lost the primaries after the February primaries (LA, NE, WA, ME, VA, MD, DC, HI, WI). After that, the March 4 primaries delivered a good result for her in Ohio, but in splitting the delegates evenly in Texas when she'd led by a dozen points earlier on, it's also pretty much when the numbers became impossible for her to overturn.

The media, however, largely ignored this reality and went along for months with Hillary's narrative of an enduringly competitive race in which anything could still happen. Even though this directly contradicted the simple math of the matter.

Delegate calculators already showed after March 4 that the odds for Hillary to still win the race were prohibitive, requiring an average of 60-65% wins throughout the rest of the race. Wasnt going to happen. But declaring the race a pro forma matter would have been awful for audience ratings, for ad revenues, for media prestige. So they kept playing up this deathmatch narrative in which two titans went toe to toe. They ignored Mississippi and Wyoming - instead, just like March 4 had been the much-hyped finale before, now it would all be about Pennsylvania!

Six weeks of that ended up with her winning Pennsylvania with exactly the margin she stood to win from the start, and not changing anything about the near-impossible odds she faced to win. And yet still the media went on: two titans! Still battling it out! The primary was by any reasonable estimation de facto over, but the media still played up the race as if it were a photofinish simply because it served their own interests. Only after Indiana and NC did they finally gave up.

So I think your analysis of what's behind the way the media has covered this race is right on, but it looks like you only recognized the pattern when it hurt your preferred candidate, not when it started benefiting her.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 10:09 am
A very positive win for Obama last night, and he gave a wonderful speech afterwards.

Best line of the speech?

"The Republican primary was a contest; a contest to see who could do their best George Bush impression. And John McCain won.'

Right on!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 21 May, 2008 10:13 am
In fact, the whole quote is great!

Quote:
But this year's Republican primary was a contest to see which candidate could out-Bush the other, and that is the contest John McCain won. The Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest 2% of Americans that once bothered Senator McCain's conscience are now his only economic policy. The Bush health care plan that only helps those who are already healthy and wealthy is now John McCain's answer to the 47 million Americans without insurance and the millions more who can't pay their medical bills. The Bush Iraq policy that asks everything of our troops and nothing of Iraqi politicians is John McCain's policy too, and so is the fear of tough and aggressive diplomacy that has left this country more isolated and less secure than at any time in recent history. The lobbyists who ruled George Bush's Washington are now running John McCain's campaign, and they actually had the nerve to say that the American people won't care about this. Talk about out of touch!

I will leave it up to Senator McCain to explain to the American people whether his policies and positions represent long-held convictions or Washington calculations, but the one thing they don't represent is change.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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