sozobe wrote:Wow, I read the "outrageous" stuff first then scrolled up to the flyers... really not what I expected.
What's so awful about them?
I'm agnostic so the religious stuff doesn't really resonate but I appreciate that Obama is comfortable in that milieu, and given that the whole Muslim thing is believed by a lot of people (putting aside for a minute whether Muslim should = bad -- it shouldn't) I can see why he'd feel the need to put out a corrective.
It is just two sides of one flyer. And there's nothing awful about it. But a Republican circulating a flyer like that would be crucified.
Just like when he lied about then dumped Wright, he'll go to any measure to get elected.
okie wrote:Ticomaya wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:okie wrote:Those flyers are outrageous, Foxfyre. I have been turning against Obama more and more, but that makes my stomach turn.
Obama must not be elected, he is poison.
Which part do you find to be the most outrageous, I would ask?
Cycloptichorn
I would ask also.
He is beginning to mix government policy with religion, not a good thing. I am all in favor of personal religious belief for his own personal conduct and decisions, which is the traditional role of faith in American government, but this crosses that line in my opinion. We are seeing the loss of understanding of how faith should influence us in government, it is getting out of whack, and shows his basic mis-understanding of the proper role of his religion. It is obvious he is trying to use it for his own personal advantage, thats all it amounts to. He is turning out to be a very cheap politician, indeed.
What government policy is he advocating mixing with Religion?
I must say, after decades of Republicans putting out flyers which are, yeah, pretty much exactly like this, your outrage is just so deliciously fake, it's wonderful.
Cycloptichorn
OK... I can sympathize with that, Okie.
Does the "he's a Muslim so I can't vote for him" context mitigate anything for you, though? That's what I see this as being about, at least 95% -- "Hello, I'm a committed Christian. Not a Muslim. Got it?"
Brand X wrote:Just like when he lied about then dumped Wright, he'll go to any measure to get elected.
Just like "losing" Hllary; I'm still in it to win it!
Foxfyre wrote:Well there's all sorts of ways to look at it. I'm just reminded about how many Obama supporters have so criticized President Bush for interjecting his religious faith into anything.
And there is this from Obama's book that I just finished:
Quote:And those who do are likely to be those with the most insular views of faith, or who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.
BARACK OBAMA, Audacity of Hope
I wonder if he will be using these brochures in Oregon?
I would guess not.
In fairness to Obama, his book also included this:
Quote:We think of faith as a source of comfort and understanding but find our expression of faith sowing division; we believe ourselves to be a tolerant people even as racial, religious, and cultural tensions roil the landscape. And instead of resolving these tensions or mediating these conflicts, our politics fans them, exploits them, and drives us further apart.
And I agree with him there 100%.
I do think many people will see the flyers as offensive pandering, however.
I don't know about other people, what they see, but I see the shadow of Black Liberation Theology beginning to rear its ugly head here. He is hinting that his community activities, probably including the work with the poor, and his faith can be used with government to help the poor with re-distribution of wealth. His use of the words, faith hope and change mean something, which he hasn't spelled out yet with details, but it begins to take shape if you listen to the Wright tapes. His religion is political, plain and simple, and folks need to wake up to what this guy is about.
By the way, Foxfyre, have you finished his book, I have, and I am curious of your assessment?
okie wrote:I don't know about other people, what they see, but I see the shadow of Black Liberation Theology beginning to rear its ugly head here. He is hinting that his community activities, probably including the work with the poor, and his faith can be used with government to help the poor with re-distribution of wealth. His use of the words, faith hope and change mean something, which he hasn't spelled out yet with details, but it begins to take shape if you listen to the Wright tapes. His religion is political, plain and simple, and folks need to wake up to what this guy is about.
I agree that a 'committed Christian' who was deep into any kind of liberation theology, as it is normally defined, could be a very dangerous or at least destructive person in a position of great power. Such as President maybe.
Foxfyre, I probably posted with my edit when you posted, but have you finished his book, I have, and I am curious of your assessment.
I agree approaching office of president with the mindset discussed here is a very questionable thing, and could be very dangerous with the wrong person.
I'm not crazy about the religious angle, but I agree with sozobe's point about the misinformation that he is a muslim. How does he address that without doing something like this? Also, I'm told that his relationship with Wright, among other things, raises "questions" about what Obama truly believes. Seems to me that he's trying to answer those questions.
Personally, I don't care about a politician's religion unless they are so deep into it that it overrides common sense and evidence in consideration of policy. But I'm told that lots of ordinary Americans care about this stuff, so here we are.
Haha, you guys are great today.
Is the plan for this fall really to try and accuse Obama of being the Scary Black Man? You will fail with that one, I guarantee.
Cycloptichorn
At the very least, cyclops, this all demonstrate at least one obvious fact, there is a huge double standard practiced by Democrats vs Republicans. Republicans are skewered for the mere mention of being religious, while Democrats often try to prove they are by this kind of stuff, plus preaching and hollering in black churches all across the country, and all of the rest of the stuff they do, and then are complimented for it. You wouldn't be the slightest hypocrit, would you cyclops?
okie wrote:Foxfyre, I probably posted with my edit when you posted, but have you finished his book, I have, and I am curious of your assessment.
I agree approaching office of president with the mindset discussed here is a very questionable thing, and could be very dangerous with the wrong person.
The book provided some useful insights into Obama's thought processes, but my impression is that it was specfically written to further the political ambitions of somebody who intended to aspire to high office; i.e. it is self serving. It carefully skirted just about everything that could be serously used against him later on. I didn't think it otherwise particularly remarkable and, at least for me, made for very tedious reading. Maybe his other book would be better, but I'm not motivated to take it on.
FreeDuck wrote:I'm not crazy about the religious angle, but I agree with sozobe's point about the misinformation that he is a muslim. How does he address that without doing something like this? Also, I'm told that his relationship with Wright, among other things, raises "questions" about what Obama truly believes. Seems to me that he's trying to answer those questions.
Personally, I don't care about a politician's religion unless they are so deep into it that it overrides common sense and evidence in consideration of policy. But I'm told that lots of ordinary Americans care about this stuff, so here we are.
I dunno. How should President Bush have dealt with all the accusations that he is a member of the radical right imposing his religious beliefs on the American people? There isn't a shred of evidence to back that up either, nor has he proposed any plan or policy that he claimed was based on his Christian beliefs, but the accusations, smears, and slander continue even today on this thread.
Would a flyer have convinced anybody who was not wanting to be convinced?
okie wrote:At the very least, cyclops, this all demonstrate at least one obvious fact, there is a huge double standard practiced by Democrats vs Republicans. Republicans are skewered for the mere mention of being religious, while Democrats often try to prove they are by this kind of stuff, plus preaching and hollering in black churches all across the country, and all of the rest of the stuff they do, and then are complimented for it. You wouldn't be the slightest hypocrit, would you cyclops?
No, I'm not the slightest hyporcit.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:okie wrote:At the very least, cyclops, this all demonstrate at least one obvious fact, there is a huge double standard practiced by Democrats vs Republicans. Republicans are skewered for the mere mention of being religious, while Democrats often try to prove they are by this kind of stuff, plus preaching and hollering in black churches all across the country, and all of the rest of the stuff they do, and then are complimented for it. You wouldn't be the slightest hypocrit, would you cyclops?
No, I'm not the slightest hyporcit.
Cycloptichorn
You didn't even spell his mispelling correctly. Pathetic.
What WV loss? Obama adds 4 superdelegates
link
Foxfyre wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:okie wrote:At the very least, cyclops, this all demonstrate at least one obvious fact, there is a huge double standard practiced by Democrats vs Republicans. Republicans are skewered for the mere mention of being religious, while Democrats often try to prove they are by this kind of stuff, plus preaching and hollering in black churches all across the country, and all of the rest of the stuff they do, and then are complimented for it. You wouldn't be the slightest hypocrit, would you cyclops?
No, I'm not the slightest hyporcit.
Cycloptichorn
You didn't even spell his mispelling correctly. Pathetic.
Hahah, I was making fun of him. Thanks for playing though!
You guys should stick to the shallow end of the pool
Cycloptichorn
