Obama '08?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

woiyo wrote:
"it's hard to imagine McCain ever being an inspirational figure."

A highly decorated Navy Office, former POW, distinguished leader in the US Senate.

You may not find these "inspirational, but I am sure many will.

He has past accomplishments - nobody denies that.

But 'inspirational?' Let me ask you, what about his message do you find inspirational?

Cycloptichorn

Some people are more inspired by deeds than words - particularly actions that are difficult, taken under conditions of extreme stress and involving high consequences for the person himself and for others as well. Such deeds that may, in particular, be indicative of traits (say of courage or the ability to deal in a principled way with critical and important issues) have great power to inspire others -- particularly in challenging times.

His comments about "message" suggest that Cyclo may be of another type, or guided by different things = one who most values words and statments of somewhat abstract values and principles, and one who, perhaps due to a lack of experience of the uncertainty of things in life and of the frequently encountered inability of gifted communicators to live up to their soaring words in the real world, undervalues the significance of challenging deeds that indicate the presence of precisely the character traits needed to accomplish the very same things Cyclo has in mind.

The ability to persuasively articulate a needed political message is rare enough. The strength of character to persist in the things required to bring the message to life is even rarer - and sadly does not often corelate well with the ability to communicate it.

I'll grant that communication skills are important in the political process, and that Obama has also shown other traits, notably a degree of wisdom and restraint that are very important as well. However, as Nicias spoke to the Athenian electors at the start of the Third Peloponesian war, -- "It generally is not wise for the fathers and guardians of the state to put all their trust, and the fate of the city, in the hands of a young man in a hurry, even one so persuasive and gifted as Alcibiades here." (Alcibiades had - with soaring oratory - proposed a prompt, fundamental change in the Athenian prosecution of the already long war with Sparta, and proposed to himself lead an audacious invasion of Sicily to quickly turn the tables on Sparta. Sadly,Nicias was out voted and disaster ensued.

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sozobe wrote:

I'm not sure why John Edwards hasn't endorsed Obama, though.

perhaps he's still assessing what it will do to his chance to be the candidate next time round - it would definitely cause a wince in an Edwards' supporter like me. I'd rather he didn't endorse either.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
woiyo wrote:
"it's hard to imagine McCain ever being an inspirational figure."

A highly decorated Navy Office, former POW, distinguished leader in the US Senate.

You may not find these "inspirational, but I am sure many will.

He has past accomplishments - nobody denies that.

But 'inspirational?' Let me ask you, what about his message do you find inspirational?

Cycloptichorn

Some people are more inspired by deeds than words - particularly actions that are difficult, taken under conditions of extreme stress and involving high consequences for the person himself and for others as well. Such deeds that may, in particular, be indicative of traits (say of courage or the ability to deal in a principled way with critical and important issues) have great power to inspire others -- particularly in challenging times.

His comments about "message" suggest that Cyclo may be of another type, or guided by different things = one who most values words and statments of somewhat abstract values and principles, and one who, perhaps due to a lack of experience of the uncertainty of things in life and of the frequently encountered inability of gifted communicators to live up to their soaring words in the real world, undervalues the significance of challenging deeds that indicate the presence of precisely the character traits needed to accomplish the very same things Cyclo has in mind.

The ability to persuasively articulate a needed political message is rare enough. The strength of character to persist in the things required to bring the message to life is even rarer - and sadly does not often corelate well with the ability to communicate it.

I'll grant that communication skills are important in the political process, and that Obama has also shown other traits, notably a degree of wisdom and restraint that are very important as well. However as Nicias spoke to the Athenian electors at the start of the Third Peloponesian war, -- "It generally is not wise for the fathers and guardians of the state to put all their trust, and the fate of the city, in the hands of a young man in a hurry, even one so persuasive and gifted as Alcibiades here."

You're not the first to pull that quote out this cycle.

McCain's actions, while noble, were long, long ago. People change. They are not necessarily indicative of his behavior or temperament at this time. What guarantee is there that the man of two decades ago, after spending much time in Washington, with it's notorious corrupting influences (and let's be frank, the Keating 5 scandal shows that he is not immune to such things) - still exists? Are his goals the same as they were then, his methods, anything?

I submit that this question is not only valid to examine, but crucial. It is not enough to rest on one's past deeds and proclaim 'I am the one to lead us, see? 25 years ago, I did noble things. So elect me now.' I agree that it is not enough to rely on rhetoric. But it's also not enough to rely upon past deeds.

I respect McCain's deeds, but I don't really see how they qualify him to be the leader of the biggest nation in the free world. There are factors other then personal bravery and determination and a never-quit attitude which are necessary for the job.

Cycloptichorn

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Your opinion. OK by me.

Cycloptricon wrote:

Your're not the first to use that quote on this thread

I'll bet I am. Certainly no one wove in the surrounding detail better.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Your opinion. OK by me.

Do you feel that examining the various actions and programs and things McCain has done since that time would help reveal the nature of his current character, or his ability to lead?

Frankly, I think you know where this is going: many of those actions are ones which are not associated with heroism or leadership, but the exact opposite. Which is more important? His actions whilst in captivity, or everything since then?

Cycloptichorn

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Don't agree at all. He has - at some risk to himself - stood against his party on the proper conduct of the war in the Persian Gulf, campaign finance reform, earmarked appropriations and several other like matters. I didn't agree with him on the campaign finance reform, but found his ability to create an alliance to accomplish it with Sen Russ Feingold - until Obama the most left-wing member of the Senate - quite remarkable.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Your opinion. OK by me.

Cycloptricon wrote:
Your're not the first to use that quote on this thread

I'll bet I am. Certainly no one wove in the surrounding detail better.

First of all, my nic is spelled Cycloptichorn, not Cycloptricon. I mis-spelled your nic for a long time, iirc, so I can understand the error.

Second, you will note that what I actually wrote was:

Quote:

You're not the first to pull that quote out this cycle.

Not

Quote:

Your're not the first to use that quote on this thread

I am quite sure you are the first one to use that quote on this thread, at least to the best of my knowledge. But several of your fellow Conservative brethren have used the example already this cycle, most notably, twice in one week at The Corner.

Cycloptichorn

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georgeob1 wrote:

Don't agree at all. He has - at some risk to himself - stood against his party on the proper conduct of the war in the Persian Gulf, campaign finance reform, earmarked appropriations and several other like matters. I didn't agree with him on the campaign finance reform, but found his ability to create an alliance to accomplish it with Sen Russ Feingold - until Obama the most left-wing member of the Senate - quite remarkable.

Fair enough; but he's currently in violation of several parts of the law with his own name on it. His campaign is currently staffed with the very lobbyists he says he opposes, some of whom did their work ON the 'straight talk express.' He stood against torture, until the bill was changed to make it SEEM to block torture, but not really; then he voted for the bill, and voted against Dem. bills that would actually block torture from occuring.

He is not consistent in the slightest. His deeds do not match his rhetoric. You will be hearing quite a bit more about this in the days and weeks to come, replete with examples, links, and analysis. I've been waiting quite a while to start rolling out the case against McCain and have a lot of data ready to go. In fact, I will be starting that thread here pretty soon; the amount of duplicity and double-talk merits a whole thread to itself.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

I respect McCain's deeds, but I don't really see how they qualify him to be the leader of the biggest nation in the free world. There are factors other then personal bravery and determination and a never-quit attitude which are necessary for the job.

Cycloptichorn

And what makes Obama qualified?

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I respect McCain's deeds, but I don't really see how they qualify him to be the leader of the biggest nation in the free world. There are factors other then personal bravery and determination and a never-quit attitude which are necessary for the job.

Cycloptichorn

And what makes Obama qualified?

A combination of intelligence, organizational ability, and humility. In-depth knowledge of a wide variety of issues and problems we face as a society. The ability to inspire others to work towards a cause worth working for.

McCain has no practical knowledge on a wide variety of issues. He's as much as admitted it several times. Obama does not seem to suffer from this problem. There are, in fact, many qualities Obama possesses that only come into sharp relief when compared to McCain's failings.

It is entirely fair to argue that there are or would be people who are better qualified to run the country then EITHER candidate; and you would no doubt be correct. But, these two are our choices, and it's difficult to see how McCain could be the choice of anyone at all, given the variety of issues that he comes up short on.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I respect McCain's deeds, but I don't really see how they qualify him to be the leader of the biggest nation in the free world. There are factors other then personal bravery and determination and a never-quit attitude which are necessary for the job.

Cycloptichorn

And what makes Obama qualified?

A combination of intelligence, organizational ability, and humility. In-depth knowledge of a wide variety of issues and problems we face as a society. The ability to inspire others to work towards a cause worth working for.

Cycloptichorn

I know lots of people with intelligence, organizational ability, and humility. I agree he is intelligent, and perhaps he is organized, but that does not a good president make. Some criminals are intelligent and organized, it doesn't tell me anything really pertinent. Humble, I don't know, I would question that one at this point. Inspiration, that is highly debatable. He may have inspired all the Obama worshipers out there, including you, but I know very few. I know of one that is in college and is so naive it is pathetic. I had to force myself to read his book, it was dry, dry, dry, and pretty non-inspirational, and for the benefit of Butrfly, I still think the title is dumb. For someone so inspirational, even the Democratic Party is highly fractured about half and half, and it remains to be seen what percentage of Clinton voters will support him.

You still haven't told me what he has done, or experience that qualifies him. If intelligence, organization, and humility are the qualifiers for the job, there are quite a few million people out there that are very likely much more intelligent, organized, and humble than Obama.

McCain may come up short in some areas, but one thing I do not doubt, he loves this country.

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So you doubt that Obama loves his country?

Could you clear this up? I couldn't hear you clearly with all the flags flapping in the wind.

T
K
O

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okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
okie wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I respect McCain's deeds, but I don't really see how they qualify him to be the leader of the biggest nation in the free world. There are factors other then personal bravery and determination and a never-quit attitude which are necessary for the job.

Cycloptichorn

And what makes Obama qualified?

A combination of intelligence, organizational ability, and humility. In-depth knowledge of a wide variety of issues and problems we face as a society. The ability to inspire others to work towards a cause worth working for.

Cycloptichorn

I know lots of people with intelligence, organizational ability, and humility. I agree he is intelligent, and perhaps he is organized, but that does not a good president make. Some criminals are intelligent and organized, it doesn't tell me anything really pertinent. Humble, I don't know, I would question that one at this point. Inspiration, that is highly debatable. He may have inspired all the Obama worshipers out there, including you, but I know very few. I know of one that is in college and is so naive it is pathetic. I had to force myself to read his book, it was dry, dry, dry, and pretty non-inspirational, and for the benefit of Butrfly, I still think the title is dumb. For someone so inspirational, even the Democratic Party is highly fractured about half and half, and it remains to be seen what percentage of Clinton voters will support him.

You still haven't told me what he has done, or experience that qualifies him. If intelligence, organization, and humility are the qualifiers for the job, there are quite a few million people out there that are very likely much more intelligent, organized, and humble than Obama.

McCain may come up short in some areas, but one thing I do not doubt, he loves this country.

Well, those are valid opinions. But as I said above - the fact that others may also be qualified does not disqualify Obama.

You are well familiar with his record of accomplishment, but instead pretend you are not. We both know better then that.

Cycloptichorn

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JPB wrote:

Edwards says Obama likely nominee!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7392969.stm

Saw video of Edwards on Morning Joe, where he says he's basically made his choice: he voted for one of the two, and that's the candidate he's going to endorse too. When pressed again on that, he said, "yeah, I voted for 'm". Or is that "voted for 'em"? :wink:

Also bucked the question of whether he and Elizabeth voted for the same candidate with a hearty laugh - sure didnt sound like it!

All in all - there was a moment or two where he had that fake edge, even I was going "if he says one more time, 'I know what it's like, I've been through this', I'm gonna wanna kill him" - but overall he was so very charming, at ease, such a winning personality ... I do wish he'd gotten more of a chance. Still like him better than either of the two now.

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Rep. James Clyburn is still nominally neutral, but man, I dont think there needs to be any doubt about how much his heart goes out to Obama anymore. Check this out from an interview with the National Journal!

Quote:

I'm very proud of what Barack Obama's done. When I sat in those jails back in the '60s in South Carolina -- dreaming about growing up, dreaming about becoming an adult, dreaming about having children and grandchildren -- I now have a 14-year-old grandson, and he is very proud of Barack Obama. I'm not going to sit down and watch anybody marginalize my grandson's dreams and aspirations. And I'm not going to see anybody go out and just absolutely nullify the energy and time that my daughter, youngest daughter, put into Barack Obama's race. This young lady started going to his office at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, every day after work, staying there to 11, 12 o'clock at night, and apologized to me for having to follow her heart for fear that it might disrupt my neutrality.

So when I look at this daughter of mine, I look at this grandson of mine, and see the pride in their faces -- I'm just not going to have anybody just tamping that down, and so that's why I spoke up. Because I'm going home on weekends, and I go to these college campuses, as I will be this weekend -- I'm going to Voorhees [College] and do the commencement there, I'm going to Tuskegee in Alabama and do commencement there on Sunday -- these young people are looking at me, saying, are you graybeards in this party getting ready to go into some room somewhere and nullify everything we did in this campaign?

(Via Ambinder)

He also ably shoots down the whole fallacy that Obama's deficit with white working class males against Hillary somehow means that he'll suffer the same deficit against McCain:

Quote:

Douglass: Well, just one more question on that subject... She was quoted today in USA Today describing her strengths against his weaknesses, and she said about herself -- quoting from a news article, she was talking about a news article -- but Senator Clinton said the following: that "Senator Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again," and "whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me." "There is a pattern emerging here," she said. What's your reaction to that quote?

Clyburn: Well, I don't think that carries any more weight than anyone who will argue that the fact that she only got 8 percent of the African-American vote in North Carolina indicates that she cannot get African-American votes in the general election. It's one thing for us to measure these two Democratic candidates against each other. It is totally something else again for us to measure a Democratic candidate against a Republican candidate. Those are two different things -- apples and oranges -- and I do believe it is a stretch for us to consider otherwise. If we buy into that, and we buy into the conventional wisdom that no Democrat wins the presidency getting only 8 percent of the African-American vote, then what does that to say for her prospects in the fall?

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Diest TKO wrote:

So you doubt that Obama loves his country?

Could you clear this up? I couldn't hear you clearly with all the flags flapping in the wind.

T
K
O

I think so, but I am not as sure. There are a few inconsistencies, and some reservations about it. The confidence level is not there. I have no doubts about McCain, and even though I disagree with him on several points, that comparison alone is enough to determine my vote.

I am not a flag waver necessarily and I am not one to pick on Obama because of not wearing a flag pin, etc., but after watching the man for months, listening to him, and reading one of his books, I am not that impressed by his allegiance or lack thereof to the institutions that I value. This involves alot of things, but one important one I derive from his book is that I do not think it would bother him to change some very important basic fundamentals of the constitution and otherwise.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, those are valid opinions. But as I said above - the fact that others may also be qualified does not disqualify Obama.

You are well familiar with his record of accomplishment, but instead pretend you are not. We both know better then that.

Cycloptichorn

Obviously, accomplishment means little to me if he is a liberal that wants to further an agenda that I oppose. I will not argue that liberals can be smart, organized, and can work hard and accomplish things. But the simple fact is Obama is not battle tested, nor has he even accomplished anything that remarkable yet that I know of as a politician. In my opinion, if someone can run a business successfully, that person has accomplished more and may be much more intelligent and harder working than most politicians that have never done anything but politics. He was a community organizer, so be it, there are lots of those, and that was part of the groundwork he laid to make politics a career.

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eoe wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Obama cannot choose her after running a 'change' campaign.

He'll have to get a bit more fresh than her.

If he chooses Hillary as his running mate, I will be so pissed off and even more, so incredibly disappointed in him that I may not ever vote again.

why? I thought you obamaites were now about uniting the party and defeating McCain because we can't afford bushs' third term... don't disappoint me and resort to same old same old washington politics thinking... Laughing

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

why? I thought you obamaites were now about uniting the party

Yeah cause everyone knows that all Obamaites think and say the same things as each other, marching in lockstep. Rolling Eyes

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

eoe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Obama cannot choose her after running a 'change' campaign.

He'll have to get a bit more fresh than her.

If he chooses Hillary as his running mate, I will be so pissed off and even more, so incredibly disappointed in him that I may not ever vote again.

why? I thought you obamaites were now about uniting the party and defeating McCain because we can't afford bushs' third term... don't disappoint me and resort to same old same old washington politics thinking...

To be honest, I believe her current and past scandals would open up Obama to some vulnerability.

Cycloptichorn

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