georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:08 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
As I said above - this is a crock of ****. I really wish you would stop this behavior, George.

I haven't seen you outline a list of reasons why you think that McCain will beat Obama; only assertions yourself. Should I refer to you as a McCainiac? And imply that you are irrational? I can do these things, if you think that's an appropriate way to treat people.

Cycloptichorn


I find nothing in the post you quoted (apart perhaps from the term "Obamaniacs" - which I regard as an amusing descriptor for the fervor found in some in that quarter) that could reasonably be described as either offensive or even annoying. I even distinguished between those Obama supporters who are seriously committed, but who are open to new information and insights, and those whose minds appear closed.

While I haven't put it together in a single post, I believe I have indeed outlined several areas in which Obama could become seriously vulnerable and in which I believe McCain might be a better choice. There is an important difference between you and me in all of this - I haven't made a final decision about whom I will vote for (except for our ding bat senator Barbara Boxer - I'll vote for anyone who runs against her) . My starting point in terms of central policy trends certainly puts me in the ranks of moderate Republicans. However, I am still evaluating the candidates and their platforms. I am open to new information, and, as has been amply demonstrated, willing to look beneath the surface of the rhetoric being flung back and forth to better understand both sides. However, all that said, it is OK with me if you wish to term me a McCainiac. If you do it in a lighthearted way or with some clever twist, I'll even laugh about it - though I will likely retaliate..

I am never irrational.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:09 pm
I must say that I do admire a gutsy broad. Mr McCain is a gutsy guy too.

Mr Obama is all wind and piss. A girly thing. Pop. Roxxxxanne. Know what I mean? Plastic seat covers.

The gutsy broad should do a deal with the gutsy guy and be his vice-presidentess and they'll piss it.

Then the gutsy guy declines a second term claiming he can't see the briefs and hey-presto.

Hollywood never made a movie as good as this.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:12 pm
spendius wrote:
I must say that I do admire a gutsy broad. Mr McCain is a gutsy guy too.

Mr Obama is all wind and piss. A girly thing. Pop. Roxxxxanne. Know what I mean? Plastic seat covers.

The gutsy broad should do a deal with the gutsy guy and be his vice-presidentess and they'll piss it.

Then the gutsy guy declines a second term claiming he can't see the briefs and hey-presto.

Hollywood never made a movie as good as this.


As you have been on the wrong - and incomprehensible - side of every issue I can remember, this is practically a vote of confidence for Obama...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:17 pm
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:20 pm
Nah-- that sort of thing doesn't interest me.

I'm not a big fan of change. Not dramatic change I mean.

A bit at a time is okay.

Not enough to shout about.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:21 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?


Nah, relax. There are good reasons for her not to drop out until May 20th or so.

As long as she and her campaign aren't going negative against Obama - in today's appearance she didn't have anything bad to say about him at all, focusing on McCain - I don't care if she wants to get fools to donate more money to help pay her debts.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:22 pm
Only unhappy people want change.

How can anybody be unhappy in that land of plenty. What do you call the Burmese cyclone victims if you are unhappy in the US.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:23 pm
Quote:
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?


zogby commented that he didn't think she would EVER admit defeat - "that word is NOT in the clinton vocabulary" , he stated .
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:27 pm
Sorry--

I should have said "promised change". It's not the same as "change".
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:27 pm
hamburger wrote:
Quote:
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?


zogby commented that he didn't think she would EVER admit defeat - "that word is NOT in the clinton vocabulary" , he stated .



admirable...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:30 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
hamburger wrote:
Quote:
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?


zogby commented that he didn't think she would EVER admit defeat - "that word is NOT in the clinton vocabulary" , he stated .



admirable...


You must be a big Bush admirer as well. For we are talking about the exact same thing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:30 pm
By heck George--what has Babs done to annoy you that much?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:47 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
When is Hillary Clinton going to admit she's already lost to Obama? Doesn't she or any of her staff understand math?


Good evening. I have been listening to talking heads from the Obama camp, the Clinton camp and from alledged non-partisans. Here are some Q and A's (With the A's being mine):

Q: Can Clinton still win? (A: No. the numbers are not there. She started out trying to get the most delegates and then the most popular votes. That didn't work. Then she went after the super-delegates arguing that she should be selected because she has a better chance of beating Sen McCain. Now she is wanting to move the goalposts again to include FL and MI).
Q: Should she quit? (A: No. There are still 6 primaries left and those folks are excited about participating in the Dem party's party. In, what was it, 1992, Paul Tsongas pulled out of the race but still won a primary, embarassing the presumptive nominee)
Q: Should she lend her campaign another $6.4 million? (A: It's her money. And hubris can come with a huge price tag).
Q: Should the Super-delegates jump on board the Obama band-wagon? (A: Not yet, but they probably will).

Feel free to add more Q's or post your own takes on the A's.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:48 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Brand X wrote:
That you are unable to get off your Obama high horse to see the big picture, Cyclo, is not my problem.

You do not corner the market on anything.

Obama is weaker than Kerry ever was, it's so easy to see without Obama colored glasses.

McCain will have every vote Bush got plus more independents. That's enough.

Again, Obama isn't nominated yet... you probably don't realize that either.


Please spell out for us exactly how Obama is so much weaker then Kerry was; it should be a trivial matter for you to do.

You're an idiot if you think that McCain is going to get every vote Bush got. Truly.

Cycloptichorn


Not to mention Kerry had the all mighty Edwards at his side.

Kerry had more experience in the Senate, was a war 'hero' which were stronger traits...plus he didn't have the potential race factor. Kerry was against Bush who is weaker than McCain. Pretty easy.

Hell, a few upper echelon Dems wanted McCain to run as Kerry's VP.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:50 pm
Bush weaker then McCain? Hardly. He was a sitting, incumbent president who was HIGHLY funded. He had a pretty big advantage for that reason alone.

And this

Quote:


Not to mention Kerry had the all mighty Edwards at his side.


Leads me to believe that you, sir, are pulling my leg Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:51 pm
I accept your surrender.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 05:53 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I just need to see actual arguments from the other side in order to take it seriously. I haven't seen any real breakdowns of what McCain's path to victory is, from anyone, including yourself.

Here's a question: If McCain is a strong candidate who has what it takes to win, where is his fundraising? Another question: why is McCain not winning the national election poll results decisively, given that the Dems are universally agreed to be divided and weak at the moment?
Fundraising is a problem and it is important that he improves this situation fairly promptly. However, with six months to go he has many options here, and as the Democrat primary winds down, the two poles in this struggle will have ample incentive to act on their self interests.

The national polis indicate a very close race between Mccain and either Democrat candidate. You seem to be implying that there is something additive about the poll results for the Democtat candidates, or that the presence of parallel comparisons somehow dilutes or diminishes the ourcomes for them. I don't understand or accept this principle, and instead interpret the polls as they are presented. As we have already seen, Poll results are an imperfect indicator, and subject to change. However we have for the past several months seen a fairly steady pattern of poll predictions of a close race, even with some gains for McCain over the past six weeks or so. Much can change over the six months ahead before the vote, but I take the polls as a reliable indicator that we will see a fairly close race - stated another way - a race that neither party has yet won.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I have no crystal ball and cannot tell the future. I am not a wild-eyed child who is going off of hope and dreams and ignoring the reality of the situation. I know that Obama will have to work hard to over-come his problems for this Fall. But McCain is a seriously and heavily flawed candidate from a party who currently isn't very popular. It's extremely difficult for me to understand why anyone thinks he is going to win.
I agree about McCain's weaknesses, however we may disagree about what is behind your "heavily flawed" and "currently isn't very popular" phrases. McCain may not inspire the remarkably intense excitement that Obama clearly does among some voters. However, on Nov. 7 the issue will be determined largely on the basis of which candidate the voter has more(as opposed to less) confidence in; whom he mistrusts the least; and whose platform appeals most to him/her.

When the Democrat primary is finally settled the focus of the campaign on respective policy difference will increase: in addition, after the respective conventions, the party platforms will be available for comparison. Republicans will certainly face some issues over the war that will hurt them among many voters; just as will the promised tax increases hurt the Democrats among the same voters and others as well.

You have noted the likely high turnout among Black voters and the overwhelming support Obama has been getting lately from them. Clearly this is an important benefit for Obama. However, the perception of this fact is likely to breed a counter reaction among some uncommitted "Non Black" voters (this is a sop just to keep Diest quiet.), and if it is only one-tenth as effective as Black support for Obama it will cancel it out, just based on the relative numbers. This is an area that, in the wake of the Wright matter, Obama has some real vulnerability. Suggestions that this would necessarily be a manifestation of latent White (excuse me, Non-Black) racism must take into account that, if so, it involves Black racism as well.

McCain runs the risk that perceptions of age and his relative rhetorical deficiencies, compared to Obama could hurt him. In turn, Obama runs the risk that the contrast between the soaring (and somewhat repititious) quality of his rhetoric and the thin character of both his personal record (resume) and specific policy proposals will hurt him.

We have a long time ahead of us and miles to go in the race. I believe the outcome cannot yet be predicted with reliability.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 06:00 pm
Brand X wrote:
I surrender.


Here, I fixed that for ya.

George,

Quote:
agree about MCcain's weaknesses, however we may disagree about what is behind your "heavily flawed" and "currently isn't very popular" phrases.


My rationale for labelling McCain as a 'heavily flawed' candidate lies in the fact that large parts of the Republican party simply do not support the man whatsoever; and the antipathy towards him, for that very comity with Democrats you pointed out earlier, is both long-established and strong. You know as well as I that many Republicans - especially those who consider themselves hard-core Conservatives, or Ron Paul supporters - will not vote for him in the general election. It is a deficit he will have to overcome.

As to the unpopularity of the Republican party - it is amazing to me that you could argue against this. After getting trounced in the 2006 elections, after losing every special election between then and now, after seeing Republican self-identification plummet, after seeing the Dems take a gigantic cash advantage for the first time in my lifetime, after watching the leader of your party's approval ratings hovering at the lowest ever recorded - you are not convinced that Republicans are not very popular at this time in history, here in America?

What would it take to convince you?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 06:01 pm
I think that a tense and exciting finish can be predicted with states vying with each other to have the decisive hanging chad so that they can promote tourism all the better.

Who wants to live in a state that's taken for granted?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Wed 7 May, 2008 06:02 pm
I liked your Q's and A's, RJB, and agree.
0 Replies
 
 

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